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Great news! You found the issue. Many different ways to adjust the lifters, and all of them are a bit finnicky or messy. The good news is once they are done, you'll probably never have to touch them again!
Don’t overthink the valve adjustment! It’s actually pretty simple. Do EXACTLY as DAD111 described yesterday at 12:56. Engine must be at operating temp. When you loosen the rocker nut, let the valve tap for a few seconds before doing the adjust to be sure the lifter plunger has come all the way up.
I'm still having trouble understanding how to put pre-load onto an oil filled, or pumped up lifter.
Left the car overnight, expecting the lifter to have bled off a bit, but it was still really hard, and tightening the rocker made the valve spring compress.
I guess I will have to make a mess and do it while it idles...now that i can get it to idle.
I still haven't set up with the air/fuel ratio gauge, so I just set the timing at a tame 14 degrees initial timing. It's pretty loud right now with just the mufflers coming straight off the header. I like the sound, but for the neighbors sake, I hope it quiets down a bit once the rest of the system is installed. Didn't want to rev it all the way up to 2800 rpm to set total mechanical timing until the rest of the system is installed. I had one of the neighbors glaring at me earlier in the week when i set the timing.
I think the h-pipe is must
I took the old crap ebay headers off and put the flow tech headers on. The passenger side was pretty easy, but the driver's side needed to have the oil dip stick tube removed. I hope it doesn't leak now that i pulled it out. It's kind of a weird angle to get to for tapping it into the block again. It looks about flush, but haven't turned the car on with the new headers yet.
I couldn't attach the mufflers onto the headers, like I did with the ebay headers, so unfortunately I have to get a tow truck to get to the exhaust shop.
Last edited by mongoose87; Jun 21, 2019 at 02:10 PM.
I'm still having trouble understanding how to put pre-load onto an oil filled, or pumped up lifter.
Left the car overnight, expecting the lifter to have bled off a bit, but it was still really hard, and tightening the rocker made the valve spring compress.
I guess I will have to make a mess and do it while it idles...now that i can get it to idle.
The engine pros can correct me but hot/cold lash is a solid lifter thing. Because a hydraulic lifter has a stiff spring inside backing off the rocker on either a hot or cold engine the plunger will be in the same position. The difference in expansion with a hydraulic system is negligible....that's the beauty of it.
Try this.
1. Warm engine up.
2. Set engine to TDC on balancer
3. Set lash on half the valves as per the picture below
4. Rotate engine 360 then set the other half
5. Done
I couldn't attach the mufflers onto the headers, like I did with the ebay headers, so unfortunately I have to get a tow truck to get to the exhaust shop.
Everyone should drive a car with open headers at least once!!!
I still haven't set up with the air/fuel ratio gauge, so I just set the timing at a tame 14 degrees initial timing. It's pretty loud right now with just the mufflers coming straight off the header. I like the sound, but for the neighbors sake, I hope it quiets down a bit once the rest of the system is installed. Didn't want to rev it all the way up to 2800 rpm to set total mechanical timing until the rest of the system is installed. I had one of the neighbors glaring at me earlier in the week when i set the timing.
I think the h-pipe is must
I took the old crap ebay headers off and put the flow tech headers on. The passenger side was pretty easy, but the driver's side needed to have the oil dip stick tube removed. I hope it doesn't leak now that i pulled it out. It's kind of a weird angle to get to for tapping it into the block again. It looks about flush, but haven't turned the car on with the new headers yet.
I couldn't attach the mufflers onto the headers, like I did with the ebay headers, so unfortunately I have to get a tow truck to get to the exhaust shop.
Great news that you have things figured out - Just me but - 14 Deg seems a little high initial timing without being able to rev it to verify total timing. I wouldn't go nuts in it till that has been check.
I'm still having trouble understanding how to put pre-load onto an oil filled, or pumped up lifter.
Left the car overnight, expecting the lifter to have bled off a bit, but it was still really hard, and tightening the rocker made the valve spring compress.
I guess I will have to make a mess and do it while it idles...now that i can get it to idle.
They can not "bleed off" because they have no oil left in them to bleed off.
You are still too tight. If the valve is moving at all while you are adjusting, there is no adjustment left in the lifter.
The lifter has an ability to compress slightly to accommodate the adjustment (and future wear). The oil will leave the lifter as it compresses when you tighten the adjusting nut but we are talking only a second or two max for that to occur.
Back the nut off and wait a minute for the lifter plunger to come up. They are designed to pop back to the top by themselves.
Lifters do not "pump up" with oil. They will FILL with oil but not "pump up" ...unless the engine is revved past the valve train limiting speed (that event can "pump up" lifters) but even with that, the oil will be pushed out in a second or two once the RPMs come back to normal. The excess oil is pushed out and lash is returned to normal
Last edited by stingr69; Jun 21, 2019 at 03:26 PM.
The engine pros can correct me but hot/cold lash is a solid lifter thing. Because a hydraulic lifter has a stiff spring inside backing off the rocker on either a hot or cold engine the plunger will be in the same position. The difference in expansion with a hydraulic system is negligible....that's the beauty of it.
Try this.
1. Warm engine up.
2. Set engine to TDC on balancer
3. Set lash on half the valves as per the picture below
4. Rotate engine 360 then set the other half
5. Done
Exactly!
That was the diagram I was referring to in an earlier post.
The "while it is running" procedure is great but you have to deflect the oil so it is not a mess. And while doing it that way remember that these are hydraulic lifters. Make sure they are new or recently new as you don't want a stuck lifter in the down position that you tighten more. Wiped cam lobe is a possible result there. Watch the effect as you tighten the rocker down that 1/2 turn. By the end, all should be pumping oil and running smoothly.
Good luck.
They can not "bleed off" because they have no oil left in them to bleed off.
You are still too tight. If the valve is moving at all while you are adjusting, there is no adjustment left in the lifter.
The lifter has an ability to compress slightly to accommodate the adjustment (and future wear). The oil will leave the lifter as it compresses when you tighten the adjusting nut but we are talking only a second or two max for that to occur.
Back the nut off and wait a minute for the lifter plunger to come up. They are designed to pop back to the top by themselves.
Lifters do not "pump up" with oil. They will FILL with oil but not "pump up" ...unless the engine is revved past the valve train limiting speed (that event can "pump up" lifters) but even with that, the oil will be pushed out in a second or two once the RPMs come back to normal. The excess oil is pushed out and lash is returned to normal
I totally understand what you are saying, and it makes sense. Maybe just a little more information on what I am seeing and doing.
I loosen the polylock until I can move the pushrod up and down, so there is clearly lash.
I slowly tighten the nut just until it can't be move up and down anymore; the rocker is still loose and the pushrod can be rotated. This to me would normally be 0 lash, and then would tighten another 1/2 turn.
BUT, when I do the 1/2 turn, it compresses the valve spring. The spring in the lifter does not appear to compress at all.
I tried loosing the rocker so there is noticeable lash, and I can move the pushrod up and down, then turn the motor over 2 times. (I don't know why i did this, but my thinking was that maybe the lifter was stuck in a compressed state, and somehow rotating the engine would free it up.)
So I did this, and I had the same result. The lifter does not seem to compress at all.
Currently, that valve is set to 0 lash, with no preload.
Back in the day you could find a solid liter in a box of all new hydraulic lifters.
Make sure the oiling hole is in the top.
You needed to check each lifter.
Same with push rods.
A solid push rod would be in the box and you needed to check to make sure there was a hole through each one.
Also roll each push rod over a flat counter to make sure there isn't any with a slight bend.
Even brand name new ones.
I still check them all.
Last edited by OldCarBum; Jun 21, 2019 at 07:38 PM.
I totally understand what you are saying, and it makes sense. Maybe just a little more information on what I am seeing and doing.
I loosen the polylock until I can move the pushrod up and down, so there is clearly lash.
I slowly tighten the nut just until it can't be move up and down anymore; the rocker is still loose and the pushrod can be rotated. This to me would normally be 0 lash, and then would tighten another 1/2 turn.
BUT, when I do the 1/2 turn, it compresses the valve spring. The spring in the lifter does not appear to compress at all.
I tried loosing the rocker so there is noticeable lash, and I can move the pushrod up and down, then turn the motor over 2 times. (I don't know why i did this, but my thinking was that maybe the lifter was stuck in a compressed state, and somehow rotating the engine would free it up.)
So I did this, and I had the same result. The lifter does not seem to compress at all.
Currently, that valve is set to 0 lash, with no preload.
The "rotated" push rod is where the issue is. While you are in the "adjustment zone" of the lifter, the up and down motion will be eliminated AND the pushrod will still rotate freely. If you actually feel drag on the pushrod, you are past the range of adjustment (too tight) and the valve will be lifting off the seat.
You are not damaging anything with the cam so no worries there. Roller lifters will not wear funny because of the start up procedure.
If the static adjustment method is still not working out you probably need to use the running valve adjustment method. Best to do on a cold engine. Set idle as low as you can and back off the nuts one by one until you hear the lifter "clicks" then tighter them 1/4 turn down past quiet. That will get you going.
I totally understand what you are saying, and it makes sense. Maybe just a little more information on what I am seeing and doing.
I loosen the polylock until I can move the pushrod up and down, so there is clearly lash.
I slowly tighten the nut just until it can't be move up and down anymore; the rocker is still loose and the pushrod can be rotated. This to me would normally be 0 lash, and then would tighten another 1/2 turn.
BUT, when I do the 1/2 turn, it compresses the valve spring. The spring in the lifter does not appear to compress at all.
I tried loosing the rocker so there is noticeable lash, and I can move the pushrod up and down, then turn the motor over 2 times. (I don't know why i did this, but my thinking was that maybe the lifter was stuck in a compressed state, and somehow rotating the engine would free it up.)
So I did this, and I had the same result. The lifter does not seem to compress at all.
Currently, that valve is set to 0 lash, with no preload.
Uh-oh....
With the engine not running, find a valve totally extended up. Loosen the rocker arm nut until the pushrod is just loose. Using a wooden dowel or something not to scratch your rocker arm and push the rocker arm down at the pushrod end. If it does not move downward (visualize it pushing into the lifter and pushing down the inner spring of the lifter - it should move enough to feel like a small spring pushing back), then you might have solid lifters.
Tightening up solid lifters one half turn after taking out any play will ruin that cam and lifters in a VERY short amount of time.
This to me would normally be 0 lash, and then would tighten another 1/2 turn.
BUT, when I do the 1/2 turn, it compresses the valve spring. The spring in the lifter does not appear to compress at all.
It is zero lash when the rocker JUST touches the pushrod. The point where it goes from air between them to metal touching metal.
At that point you could still push the pushrod down in to the lifter against its very light spring. You could still rock the rockers a little by hand by compressing the little spring in the lifter. You could still spin the pushrod with your fingers.
You go from rocker arm and pushrod JUST TOUCHING and add 1/2 turn. That is your preload. Your just pushing the little lifter plunger down off the lifter's retaining ring a hair.
Hopefully you didnt end up with solid lifters but I think your just over estimating how much force that little spring in the lifter is going to push back up. Hopefully thats all.
Last edited by ConnecticutJunkman; Jun 21, 2019 at 09:44 PM.
Hydraulic lifters only "move" .060" Hopefully the problem is just over-tightening and the valve is hanging open. It's been a while but once they are full of oil I don't even know if you can compress them by hand and "feel" it.
Hydraulic lifters only "move" .060" Hopefully the problem is just over-tightening and the valve is hanging open. It's been a while but once they are full of oil I don't even know if you can compress them by hand and "feel" it.
Yes you can feel the spring compress if filled with oil. The oil will move up into the pushrod. Solid lifters will feel rock solid because the cup inside has no place to go.
just in case the link doesnt work it's Duration 266/270, Lift .485/.495, 112 LSA, 108 ICL. 213 int./217 exh at 0.050.
Also, OP wrote he has self aligning rockers ... there was a cropped pic but (based on shape of body) it seems they might be Full Roller ... ... but pic did not show area where any trunnion or poly-lock might be.
??? I ask ... because of higher lift etc, could the PRs be binding-rubbing in the Vortec heads' PR holes? ... ... and interfering with lash adjustment?
