In my opinion, the one thing I want to emphasize is that you have taken the wrong approach to this....you have created a post in regards to a combination you are putting together on a public corvette forum.... you're going to get opinions out of the forum members based upon their experiences of what they have either run or read..... did you expect anything different ? This is the history of this board and has been happening literally for over a decade now..... its all good.... and quite frankly, normal hotrodding ! I wouldn't recommend you chastize the very people here trying to help you and then further attempting to demoralize them because they are not engine builders....

My next point is, of all of the people you probably should not rely on to soley choose your combination is an engine builder..... especially for a street car. They are not necessarily going to sell you the best cylinder head, many, (certainly not all) are going to sell you the brand cyiinder head that they have an open account with or got a great deal on, but yet offers "good enough" performance. These forum members offering you up advise are not trying to sell you a darn thing.....

Also, look at low and mid-lift flow on the cylinder heads in question, this is really what seperates the cylinder heads..... most of them can port enough to find 300+ cfm at .600-.700 lift.... but, its below the peak that sets them apart. For me, there are really only 3 brands of 23 degree cylinder heads I would personally consider....

- AFR Eliminator series
- Brodix M2's
- All Pro 23 degree

I think those 3 above have kind of pulled away from the rest of the crowd.... at least in my opinion they have.

Lastly, I have run both Dart & AFR cylinder heads on the exact same motor.... in fact I had 200cc "Ported" Dart heads on my old 383, of the mid 90's vintage..... I switched to an "un-ported" mid 90's vintage AFR cylinder head with a smaller 190cc runner and I ran quicker and faster my 1st pass..... take that for what its worth. But, I will say, there is nothing wrong with the Dart heads you are buying and will probably make good power on your motor, as would many other cylinder heads too.

good luck with your results !

 

I only chastise those people who:
1. Call me a moron
2. make statements with nothing to back it up

I have no issue taking informed opinions form personal experience and subject matter experts.
OK, this is a brand new platform that Pat is building. He builds engines for Edlebrock and there are discussions of adding this motor to the Edlebrock stable. Pat has a lot to gain as this is a "pilot" motor which can mean a lot more business for him. I don't see him shopping price. IN FACT I have spoken to other engine builders and the price I am getting on this motor is practically "giving it away". He's not in this build for the money. Furthermore, if I insisted on Brodix, or AFR we'd be doing that. The Dart 215s on paper seem to be a good choice, and it is supported by his experience. I agree with you in general, however, if you had the dealings with him I have had, I think you'd see it differently.
Thanks.

See, here's the issue, there's another guy here (forget his name) that did just the opposite. Went from AFR to Dart and did better with the Dart. It depends on the entire combination of engine, cam, heads, etc..... that's my point there are no hard and fast rules so at some point, it's intuition and crossing fingers. Not to say there isn't a science behind it, but it's certainly not cut and dry.

My problem is when someone makes the assertion that I'm a moron because I did not heed their ill thought out position, or do what is popular over what is right, just go along with the crowd. That transcends normal dialog and becomes simply irritating. forums such as this provide no value, and in fact a complete dis service, if open, informed dialog is curtailed to "I know a guy" and "you're a moron". I will listen to ANYTHING anyone has to say if backed by fact and reason. I will not tolerate an armchair engine builder who hasn't so much as screwed together a lawnmower.

There are people here who believe if you want power simply add "X" component and you'll get everything you need. As demonstrated in this example above, that's just not true. I am in search of the perfect SCIENTIFIC answer and can't seem to find it.

What I do know is that there is a TON more meat that can be taken out of either the Darts or Brodix that should I decide to grow them again, I can.

thanks

 

You can bench race it to death, and it still hasn't gone faster than 118 MPH. Watch, I can do it too:

Let's run Jonecap's car at E-town instead of a humidity laden track from here in NC. It'll go 119 there.

Let's pull the seat out of it, maybe take out the spare, do some other easy weight reduction stuff. 120.

Add 30 cubes to his motor, just to level the playing field. 126-127.

Put some real tires on it, and more importantly some light weight wheels. 129 maybe 130 on a cool fall day.

Viola'! Jonecap has a 130 MPH car!

Back in the really real world, both cars have only gone 118. If you choose to be impressed by a 383, AFR headed, F-body running 118 through an auto, knock yourself out. I don't agree, but different strokes for different folks.

What kind of ET does that car produce? Has it ever been dyno'd? Jonecap's car has always been sort of a track anomaly, (so maybe it's not the fairest comparison, but the fact remains that it does put up 118 MPH with stock LT4 heads) it didn't put up stellar numbers on my dynojet or anything, 355 RWHP give or take a few.

 

Fair Enough.... and once again, good luck !

 

I don't know who Jonecap is, but sounds like he is running Great !

On benchracing....you went first.... I was just following your lead. Ie: comparing it to a LT4 with a stick and more than likely 1-2 hundred lbs lighter....who more than likely has run his best et's/traps in good spring/fall/winter air, not to mention time to dial-in his combination. I was just trying to show you an apples for apples comparison.

The guy just got his motor together a few weeks ago, that was his first time out after a dyno-tune and it blasts 118 mph @ 3400 lbs in August air with a n/a hyd cammed motor..... and as per your own post, you are un-impressed ? This is an easy 120 mph trap speed car as it sits in better air..... you don't have to bench race to know that, virtually every car on this board runs at the very least a tenth or two slow in summer air.....

My only real question to you is, count how many naturally aspirated hyd cammed C4's with a 350-406 are running 118 + mph in the summer air that are forum members here ? The list will be short.... and let me know if you're impressed with any of them....

 

I love a 427 in a Vette. Once mine is payed off, I was thinking of going with a Motown block and 427 build. I look forward to seeing your results.

 

You should reread what you wrote as I certainly felt there was alot of uncalled for (and IMO off base) negative commentary aimed at our product....as the head of R&D of this company and a dyed in the wool performance enthusiast myself (who pours his heart and soul into the product we produce), I couldn't help but be a little put off by your posts. I'm sure you would have been too had roles been reversed but its water under the bridge at this point and I did appreciate your response back.

However I need to correct you in your assumptions that AFR's have thin walls and cant be ported. The only spots they are thin are in area's any porter worth his salt would want them thin such as the head bolt area between the two intake ports and the pushrod pinch. Besides that the ports are just as thick as an as cast offering but the real point that your kind of missing is the AFR heads are completely optimized at their given port volumes and making them bigger doesn't guarantee more flow. If you need more simply opt for the next size optimized AFR.

This once again gets back to my paragraph about the key to a really successful street/strip combination being a very efficient cylinder head with a moderate cross section and a strong airflow curve. If you start porting a 215 cc as cast head and ultimately end up at say 228 cc's to finally achieve 300 CFM (hypothetically) the fact of the matter is our 195 Comp head goes the same number with huge low and mid-lift numbers and over 30cc's less volume. The car will be significantly faster with that scenario (it will have much more low and midrange power and torque fattening up the average power numbers that are what ultimately get you down the track....peak numbers dont tell the whole story), BUT the real bonus is the increase in part throttle response and low/midrange torque that you feel and appreciate every day you drive the car on the street. The SOTP difference between the two combinations is huge and you would have to experience it to really appreciate it.

We have invested tremendous effort to offer the end user an extremely optimized and very efficient cylinder head that is 100% CNC ported and requires no additional handwork (which is always a crapshoot because its inconsistant). Honestly there is a far greater chance you will hurt these heads than help them by putting a grinder to them. They flow so well for their given size because we have already invested a ton of time to achieve that....dont automatically assume that making them bigger will make them better. If you need more air and/or a larger runner simply purchase the larger optimized AFR as it will save you alot of time and money in the long run. I cant stress enough how a dual purpose car, especially one that spends most of its time on the street, will benefit from a smaller more efficient head (and it will go faster at the track).

Also please understand that certain engine builders have allegiances to certain products and alot of other factors go into some of the decisions and recommendations made that are political and economics driven....not necessarily which product is truly best for your application. Im not saying that's the case with you and I'm not saying it isn't, purely pointing out the fact there is alot more involved behind the scenes you may not be considering. I spoke with an engine builder two days ago....probably in his late fifties or early sixties if I had to guess who has been using Brodix for 25 years but every time he dyno's an engine with our heads he says he is always surprised at how much power they make. Point of the story is while him and I finally had a conversation that may have opened some doors, I left off hanging up with him thinking I would be surprised if he contacted me because I could tell it he didn't seem like a guy looking for change (regardless of the potential power benefits) and the economics of the fact he is set up with them already and likely gets the good guy discount.

Lastly, I will be the first to admit our older product had some casting issues from time to time and our lead times in the past have also been a big problem (sometimes over three months), but we have switched to a much more modern foundry with all new tooling on our Eliminator heads (night and day better quality as those who have seen both could easily attest), and the move to our new much larger facilty has been a godsend concerning lead times and our productivity. The average lead time now is about four weeks on a new order and by next year after we implement some other improvements including the addition a new machining center we are hoping to knock that down to half that amount (2-3 weeks at most)....very acceptable on a set of heads specifically built to order.

Sorry for the long winded response (again) but I had alot to touch on....

Regards,
Tony

 

Wow this looks like an interesting thread. Don't have time to read it now but will later, just thought I'd give a few quick facts about my car:

-Only had two passes with the new heads with no cool down time right off the highway except for tech inspection

-after hit the rev limiter, 1st pass 2.05 12.37@117.5MPH

-short shifted to make sure I got a clean pass in first before the rain hit 2.03 12.24@119MPH

-Temp was 27C and very humid
-mail order tune which I have not checked since changing the TB

3.73 gears

small 230/236 cam 577 lift

Motor goes through 2qts of oil every 700 miles so the short block most likely is limiting power output. I'll be fixing that over the winter when I put in a "real" cam

She's an 11 second car easy with a soft launch ( I would 60ft 1.80s on Firehawks with the stock motor) on a hurt bottem end that feels like it's 30 cubes bigger than a C6 Z06

So far I am very impressed with the new AFRs but I'll post more comments later, I gotta run now.

 

Guys....Tony is a stand up guy and makes a terrific product.

I have no issue with the AFR product. They are a top of the line head. And Tony is a terrific guy.

My problem is with knee jerk reactions from interweb idiots that believe there is only one solution for every problem. YOu guys are not doing AFR any favors. I can list a handful of other people who feel the same way. THis AFR/Miniram thing is simply obnoxious. There are other combinations.

So......that's my position.

When I come here, or anywhere for advice I expect well thought out advice, not "buy this".

What do I mean about that?

I expect something along the lines of saying "here's my cam, intake, CI, etc.....and have a DISCUSSION on what parts fit together.

What too many of you do here is simply spout MR, this cam, AFR....just do it trust me....
When asked why it's "because I know a guy who is fast" or some other jerk off answer.

I sincerely appreciate the time spent on the phone and through email with guys like Deakins, Cuisinartvette, FICJOHN, ect.... These are guys who actually took the time to understand WTF I wanted as an end result and gave thoughtful answers.

So, I think anyone who is looking for a head should consider AFR, hell, like I said, I was >< close to getting them myself. It's a-holes here that pushed me the other way. My thought, FK you, I'm going to make monster power WITHOUT AFRs....put that in your pipe and smoke it a-hole.

Anyway....I hope Tony, and the rest of you, understand that my rantings have NOTHING to do with the quality or performance of the product. As someone said to me, "we can make flow benches say anything we want"...and "never trust manufacturer's numbers, any of them"...both true.

SO...that's my point and once again, I'd like to thank Tony for being a great guy, I know I've been hard on his product, but it was to make a point.

Someday I'd like to see an independent test of heads side by side on a setup that does not favor any one of the brands. That will tell the story.

 

As per our public message....uuuuhh....I mean private message that "someday" is in your court.

My offer still stands to take the heads back no questions asked if your willing to pit them against whatever you head you like on the dyno.

 

First of all that car will never touch 126-127 with 30 more cubes and those stock LT4 heads. its gonna take a good 75100lbs to get to 120 from 119 in similar conditions.. that weight isnt easily lost

Best i can see that car doing is 123-124 in cool air with a 383 and stock lt4 heads with no seats/spare. And thats being generous i feel. to hit 130 that car has to be extremely light. at 3200lbs raceweight, he'd need 450whp like a C6 Z06... aint ever happening with a 383/hotcam/lt1 intake/stock lt4 heads. Solid roller 12 to 1 355-383 guys make 450-500whp. those cars rev to 6800-7000

The car in question is my fbody. I dont want this thread to get off topic but since it was brought up i want to clarify. car is still breathing thru a almost 3" MAF sensor and stock camaro TPI intake which isnt flowing enough. I'm building a 3.5" sensor and air system that should really open up the car

car is somewhere over 3400 lbs with me in it and produced 392whp on its final run with coolant temps running over 205 degrees. its got 400 if its cool.

car stilll has less than optimal gears, doesnt shift exactly where i need it, and still has traction problems

Runs 11.50's at 118-119. my last run was 11.62 at 118.67 so as night air comes in it will touch 119. I dont think thats too bad for a stalled auto 700r4 car.

For this Jones guys' car to run 355 whp and hit 118 that has to be a VERY light car. my motor in his car would hit mid 120's easily with near 50whp more

 

Nothing wrong at all with buying a bare set of heads and having them built and ported, juts make sure the person porting is good at what the ydo and provides a flow sheet.

I would say a good port job alone would be $500 plus the cost of good back cut valves, springs, titanium keepers etc

 

getting the heads build with proper springs/valves/etc IS important and SHOULD be done. It just so happened to be that AFR already had the right springs available for my custom cam. I upgraded to the AFR 8019 springs, a popular LSx spring.

Lots of out of the box heads dont have the proper springs. Buying bear and building is the only way even tho it may cost more, its worth it. valvetrain/heads make power. Spend the money there

 

John. Are you going to take Tony up on his offer?

 

Thanks Tony.

As I mentioned I'll let you know Monday. I have to see if Pat ordered the heads and if it can be derailed.

Pat does not have an EFI setup to dyno the motor so it has to be done in the car.

If anyone has a wiring harness for a 90 they'd like to donate to the cause, I'll pull my ECU and have Pat hook it up. Then I can do this on a dyno for little money. Remember, Pat is a RACE builder and most of his stuff is carbed. OR if anyone has an after market ECU they can throw at it.

To put heads on and off in the car is an expensive proposition, and I'm going to be into this for $8K as it stands. I'm not throwing another $2-$3K at it to have two sets of heads removed and replaced to make a point. If Ricky wants to fund it that's fine.

NOW, if there is someone willing to do the work, and guarantee that when I get the car back it will be as it was, I'll donate the car to the cause. And it has to be done in conjunction with Pat, I'm not going to blow a warnantee on my motor for a test. I've had enough bad luck already.

Third issue, say you're right, now I have a set of Dart heads I can't use, what do I do with them. If the Darts perform better, then I'm OK.

My issue is one of funding. That's it. If that could be resolved, I'm in.

 

Hey Ricky, when you gonna get your motor done? It's been what? two? three years? and how many parts? First it was Trickflow now AFR? What will it be tomorrow?

I may not have AFR heads, but at least I'll be able to drive my car 30 days from now. 30hp less or not.

Seems to me I'd rather have a car with 50 less HP on the street than a pile of really cool parts....just sayin'.

 

Spite seems like a poor reason to chose an engine build. I'm sure whatever you choose to put on, there's some azzhat out on the internet somewhere spouting off about it too.

Good luck with the build, it sounds exciting. Can't wait to hear how it goes. And if you are able to take Tony up on his offer, can't wait to hear about that either. Even if you can't test it under perfectly ideal conditions (efi intake) it might still be neat to see what it does with the different heads.

 

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1566650573

There's your answer tough guy!

 

You seem to make this point that if someone has AFR heads, it takes them months/years to build the motor?

And no offense, you shouldnt be talking about how long it takes for someone to build their motor since your not even doing the build yourself

 

They were never private to begin with. Big brother is watching, and I'm not talking about the gov.