The 3 rows have one 1" row then two 1/2" rows in most cases in order to stuff the sections in the same amount of space. In effect the 3 row ends up with wasted space on the gaps between the smaller rows. Less capacity in other words.

In an application where the width or thickness was not limited, a 3 row that had real 1" rows would probably be a benefit, but not in this case. C4s are severly restricted by the available space. Once max capacity has been reached, after that its about heat exchange via fans and air-flow thru the cores. The core capacity simply means that more of the heat from the engine is available to be carried away with the air flow thru the core.

 

Have not bought a performance replacement aluminum radiator yet.

Look forward to your write up on C4 in the near future.

I like to buy All American Made when I can,
that means my money spent pays the USA worker's direct and they can keep feeding their families.

BR

 

It doesn't really matters but -

Without getting into the fans airflow (cfm), choice of metal used to construct the radiator and coolant chemistry - in this case the "fins" ability to exchange heat from the rows that makes the differenece not so much as "capacity" role (even though the capacity between these two radiators appear to be the same - at a minumum). Effectively increasing the heat exchanging surface area of the coolant carring tubes (covered by more fins per square inch and the thickness of the fined area itself) plays the strongest role in defining the "performance" of a radiator. The OP mentioned this idea just a few post up that "the 3 row is 1/4" wider" than the 2 row version.

This thread is getting by splitting hairs. Very nice thread GREGG - stay cool

 

Great writeup guys! I'll be referring back to this in the near future for sure

 

True,

and there is a very good reason why aluminum is used in the configuration that it is...

weight and tensile strength .

A similar brass radiator weights 2-3 times what a comparable aluminum would be. I had to take a brass replacement unit yrs ago because that was available that day where I would have had to order the aluminum version (stock). Cooling was not alot different but the single row brass weighed more than the larger 2 row aluminum that replaced it,...lots more.

There are also some strength issues,. if I remember right thats another reason why brass is heavier because it has to be thicker.

I'd bet that I lost 20+ lbs when I removed that brass unit.

 

The point was to identify is the 3-row unit had advantage or not. Maybe engle1147 will compare his performance to this....

I finally drove a longer distance last night. My 2-row stayed in the upper 190's most of the trip. (Probably 180ish according to the ECM sensor near the stat.)

When I got off the highway it went up to the lower 200's even with the A/C on. Temps seemed to hold steady around 201-202. When I got to my destination, I let it sit and idle. The temps rose VERY slowly. Up 1-deg every 30-sec to a minute. After about 5 minutes, it was up to 214. I tried shutting the A/C off. Temps came back down. (Before the installation of this radiator, temps wouldn't drop until I got the car moving again. In fact, they would have kept rising at idle.) Outside temp was 84.

For a 383, the two row solves most of my problem. It looks like a higher CFM fan wouldn't hurt. The real question is what it'll do when temps are back up in the 100's....Or if I'd really let it sit and idle for a long period with the A/C running. Traffic jam is probably the big issue in the summer. FWIW, I believe many of the higher priced options have also done a fan upgrade too.

Before this new radiator, temps would rise w/o the A/C running. I got nervous sitting at any stop light for a couple of minutes. That's because city traffic driving sent temps higher and higher. Luckily, I never was stuck in a traffic jam before!!!! With this unit, it looks like it will do the job (even w/o a higher CFM fan). At the worst, I might have to shut down the A/C for a couple of minutes.

I haven't tried "Water Wetter" either. Not sure if that stuff is worth it.

FYI: My 383's compression is 10.25:1 with a high DCR of 8.25:1.

 

I'm living in the never ending hell of 100+ temps from 12 noon to 10 pm in this gulf coast paradise they call Houston....and my results are very similar to what you describe. I never shut off the a/c anymore because it gets to 220 maybe...(seen it at 224) and thats about it. The instant I move again it drops and gets stable near 200 and if I cruise it goes down to 189 even on days like this...a/c running like crazy. My eng is running 10.5:1 comp and tries to get hot just from the size, fuel & tune...but those days are pretty much over. I sweat a LOT less sitting in traffic or stop lites these days. Last yr I was shutting the eng down while stuck in traffic....nervous like a ***** in church.

BTW...I run 50/50 dexcool with water wetter. I cannot say for sure that the WW helps but I have seen no evidence that it might hurt anything... Its a CYA additive. The theory of better conductivity makes more sense with new metal to handle the work of heat exchange.

Glad you got the results that you were hoping for.

 

leesvet: I think you should include which radiator you're running. IIRC, you bought the ECP unit, right?

It does sound like we've ended up with a simiarl before/after result.

 

 

Wow 1400 views. That's impressive and it tells me a lot of people are thinking about saving money when they can.
My report isn't going to be about C4's or even Corvettes for that matter but rather an information sheet on how aluminum radiators are made. Both the good methods and the bad. I feel the more people know what we do and how we do it, the better the chance of them accepting the higher price for our brand. There will be those who claim your just throwing money away but at least you will know they are different. Our business in no different than any other and there is an over-the-top way, the standard way, and the short cut way to make everything. Stay tuned....

 

Thanks Tom, your direct fit radiator w/upgraded fan is on my to-buy list
after the D44 and TH700 overhaul, thanks, post a thread with that useful info
when ready !

 

Well I don't have an OEM pump anymore. I've posted that 2 or 3 times in this thread. If an electric water pump spins faster than a 30% high flow unit (at idle), then it sounds like a worthwhile consideration.

I did as much reading/research as anyone during my build and never saw if/when it's beneficial to convert to electric.

 

I think you're right. As I mentioned before (in this thread), C4 prices are getting to an all-time low. I don't know what the average selling price is these days, but I sure see lots of lots of threads talking about buying a C4 for $5k or less. I doubt that the average buyer is looking to completely restore/refurb their car (like I did).

Even when I built my 383, I saved money every chance I could get. For example:
1) Wiseco pistons bought at 50% off
2) Scat9000 (builders/generic) crank for $115 (% off unsure)
3) Used intake bought at 70% off new
4) $200 discount on AFR heads
5) New waterpump from another forum member who didn't use it (65% off)
6) DIY polish/porting work
7) 20% off on machine shop work (in exchange for longer wait)
8) 10-30% on many other parts...

This list goes on an on. Saving money doesn't mean I deliberately ignored opportunities to do the build well....I just saved money wherever possible. People buying a $5000 car will be more likely to do so. Mine was purchased with 14k miles 11yrs ago. It's got only 60k miles now but has almost been restored....paint, engine, and interior.

mak041 wondered why I wouldn't want a more expensive radiator as insurance. Had I followed that mindset, I wouldn't have saved over $300 on the crankshaft. I would have gone forged. I consider that would have been insurance since every poster and builder I talked to said I'd been fine with a cast unit. The theory being rpms break cranks, not torque. Even Scat mentioned that.

When I painted my car, I let the shop keep it for an entire summer. That too was in exchange for getting a lower rate. So, I definitely work to get better pricing when possible. But I look for feedback on a part before buying. So far, purchasers of Silla, Champion, and ECP radiators have provided good feedback.

 

Eye Eye Captain Kirk..............

The crap aluminum constructed radiators are built using epoxy internal & hidden from normal radiator cap removed viewing I know.

The best aluminum radiators are hand TIG welded together by a craftsman and his welds will pass X- Ray tests similar to what is done on nuclear reactor cooling system pipes by the head nuclear US inspector.
Furnace Brazing in a controlled environment gives excellent results also.

And the best aluminum sheet fabricated radiators have a very high burst strength because of superior construction techniques.
And have heavy wire gauge side tanks & coolant flow tubes.

Best costs I know.

I have "0' experience using Champion radiators.
I only knew that they made spark plugs till recent in this thread.

China crap is scary 99.99 % of the time to me.

Real test to me always is flat out high speed racing.
If you can beat on a product within its designed operating parameters 500 times or more to ultimate yield strength and beyond,
Its a very good & likely the best there is.

I have not bought any aftermarket performance aluminum radiator just yet.
You have an equal chance of winning me over to your products- C4 aluminum radiators offered.
Decide & make my purchase after your thread on your radiators offered here on C4.

Brian R.

 

Yessir...

I was reluctant initially, being suspicious of a "good deal" but went ahead and am very glad that I did.

I have absolutely nothing against the other brands mentioned here, and might even lean toward one of those if I were absolutely obsessed with the idea that paying more means getting more...I do not suscribe to that theory. I have a buddy that thinks like that and his Wilwood brakes (6 piston caliper, yeah) on a plain-Jane Mustang convert pretty much explain everything......(can't begin to tell me what he'll do when he needs pads or other service). Waste of money.

If I had a $25000 build then I might be more inclined to look for the absolute best available, maybe even have it fabricated like many custom builders will do. But IMHO the typical street car like most that are here, will survive with the less expensive unit and allow the owner to use the cash difference to enhance his ride in some other way. Again, lower cost does not equate to lower quality. Poor quality seems to always cost less, but its not always the other way around.

One other note worth mentioning, the idea that lower cost products always come from China is absurd. Thats a myth. The ECP unit that I bought had a tag that indicated that it was mfg'd in Chicago Ill and the new condensor
($75 +shipping) was made in Michigan (purchased thru different seller).
The last Delco ign module I bought had a tag in spanish...made in Mexico. THAT was depressing....Our beloved Corvette braking systems (PBR) come from an Australian company...The car is already outsourced, so even IF China made most replacement parts, its a little late to start complaining about that..
The distributer (ECP) for these radiators may have multiple vendors or sources...I dunno.
All I DO know is that mine was a locally made product that fit exactly as they described and it was actually less hassle than described to fit the blocks to the bottom of the radiator. Hardest part was getting the nipples back in the small holes in the shroud....A great result for a days work to disassemble the shroud system, clean, install radiator, change all hoses, new condensor, steam clean and reassemble.

I'm satisfied.

 

[QUOTE=GREGGPENN;1578449066] If an electric water pump spins faster than a 30% high flow unit (at idle), then it sounds like a worthwhile consideration.
QUOTE]

Thing is they flow at a constant rate independent of motor rpm.....

Whatever the rating is what they flow......all the time!

Max cooling at idle and no wasted horsepower at higher than cruise rpms..

Why 30%????

 

Sounds great! Got any pics?

 

how much extra horsepower with the electric pump ?

 

I have wished many times that I did !

The whole upgrade was part of a plan to install another cooler in the nose ahead of the condensor, get the a/c working with 134a as best as possible and do any/all maint in the nose that could be found. The single weakness of the upgrade/design is that the a/c suffers from poor air flow at high ambient temps when the traffic has me stuck at idle. The engine stays cool idling but I don;t always...As soon as I move again and get fresh air,. it returns to normal a/c cooling. A good pusher fan is needed in the very front for the a/c condensor, IF I can find some room to mount one..I'm pretty much out of space up there. I hate to loose the oil cooler mount...that was an idea that actually worked well.

The truely unique part was the reinforcement of the lower shroud with C channel to make it solid and support the additional oil cooler....That was riveted in with plate aluminum as backing on the opposite side, and the cooler fit down into the channel on the inside....hoses were double bagged (wrapped with next size hose) and routed thru the edges of the shroud. If I see my temps creeping upwards near 220, I have to stop and remember that I have blocked at least 50% of the clean air flow in the nose AND did that with another heat exchanger that is dropping off more heat before the a/c condensor even gets a chance at fresh....so my result is very good IMO.

Gotta tell ya, all that new aluminum....I did'nt know whether to install it or hang it on my living room wall !

 

That too bad (about the pics). ECP talked up the quality of their radiator vs the Champion stuff...so seeing another pic might have helped other buyers. I don't see much difference between mine and the ECP ad pic (except the shape on the driver's end).

Can you comment on the overall difference in your opinion? Also, I can't figure out how yours would have fit the rubber mounts w/o modification. The sheer width of the wider radiator seems to force the condenser further forward. (Plus, I didn't want the condenser and radiator touching...figured that could transfer heat from one to the other).

Now THAT's when I read about using an electric water pump vs belt-driven. Since I was able to find a brand-new high-flow waterpump on the cheap, I decided to stick with conventional even if it cost me on the dyno. Mine isn't a track car...though running it on a closed course (like Calderone showed) looks like a lot of fun!