There are 10sec yugos but uhhh. Whats the point. I wouldn't' be caught dead in it. Did you have your v8 today??

 

There are plenty of modded low displacement tuner cars that can outrun a c5, even embarass one.... for about 10-20k miles until they blow up. Meanwhile, plenty of people on this forum have c5's with over 400k on the clock. I love all cars, but show me a forced induction low displacement engine that makes 350hp for 400k miles, and I will give it equal respect to the lsx series engines.

Unfortunately, the laws of metallurgy don't allow this with the increased heat and cylinder pressures. There truly is no replacement for displacement.

 

This statement simply exudes ignorance...no offense, but to put it blatantly.

The fact is OEM Honda 4 cylinder short blocks and transmissions often can tolerate more crank hp than the C5's equipment can. To date there are B16's (alum block, floating cylinder, iron cast sleeve, cast pistons/rods, forged crank) producing 600+whp DOCUMENTED for 3+ years of racing. Multiple 450whp+ examples driven for years on end.

How is this possible you ask? The Honda crank has proven itself to over 1000hp and 650 ft/lbs of torque....in a 4 cylinder! The transmissions have done low 10 second passes season after season (generally requires about 650whp on a 26" slick). It's all possible because Honda injects racing technology...quickly...much quicker than GM.

They're block forgings and block webbing has been compared to Ferrari in terms of quality and strength. Honda engineers a FANTASTIC product...bottom line. Why do you think so many Honda's are out there with 250k+ miles?

You made a statement offering equal respect, yet you don't give it. 350hp/350 cubic inches for 400k miles. Honda has done that, comparatively speaking, for decades. B18C's and B16's produce 90-100hp/liter bone stock, resulting in significantly higher piston speeds and brake mean effective pressures than an LS1, and consistently have more vehicles on the road in excess of 200k miles...that's a guarantee without question. For every one GM LSx product over 200k miles, I guarantee Honda has 5.

Anyone who can't respect what Honda brings to the table operates purely upon ignorance...that's a 100% fact. Like stated earlier by someone else, I'm proud to have built Honda's as a hobby, and professionally for over 10 years. I appreciate true engineering, I appreciate building for power versus buying it and I appreciate having an opened mind about how to achieve the simple challenges of speed.

In the end...a car is a shell that contains mass. The challenge is how you propel it. They all are built upon the same principle of suspension, frame design, etc. A Corvette guy can run his mouth about a Civic, just like a guy driving an Aventador can laugh at the big shot in his 2000 C5 coupe with an automatic.

A true builder will always appreciate the engineering and the execution of any build which achieves significant output and performance. The ignorant will sit on the shoulders of what the Corvette engineering team sold them and call themselves tall.

 

After all that and at the end of the day, It is still a Honda with a big muffler and lowered with cut springs that give the riders one hell of a bumpy ride...lol

 

you're stretching truth here. the high hp B series cars are all on sleeved blocks, not oem. the limit of reliable on an oem b series is around 300whp, guys have pushed past this but they do die sooner or later. the head bolts stretch about 450whp on a bone stock engine. transmissions are also the other thing that grenade unless you start reinforcing with parts from m factory.

you can put the gears from an mn12 next to a honda s80 and the difference in sheer metal is pretty large

also on mileage, the number of hondas out there with 250k are usually the low rpm variety that do not attract a lot of racing. see if you can find a b18c5 over 200k on the OE build. if you do it's probably owned by some old guy who pampers it. you absolutely can not get around physics and the 8500rpm redline is hell on rings and valve guides.

 

Racebum...bud...you can't be too well versed in the Honda world with the info you just stated. I've tuned 350whp single cams on stock sleeves with Vitara pistons that were daily driven for years. I've tuned 500whp B16's and GSR's on stock sleeves ALL DAY...for years.

Spanning 10 years, I tuned well in excess of 100 forced induction Honda's...I've got the bin files to prove it. All the issues you speak of are simply timing related. With stock sleeves you need to be aware of total timing. Poor tuning will lead to cracked sleeves, bent rods and stretched headbolts. On the street I'd tune a/f's to mid 11's, and I'd go 2 degrees back from MBT and call it a day.

There are true documented STOCK short blocks making in excess of 600whp on conservative timing...it's a fact.

As far as mileage is concerned...haha. I don't think I had a friend in 10 years that had a Honda under 200k. You show me a kid with a Honda that doesn't beat the living **** out of it daily...haha.

RPM's don't matter, it comes down to piston speed in ft/sec and piston accel/decel. The B16 has ideal rod/stroke, which is why there is such survivability. In addition, Honda uses a higher silicon content in their material, which controls expansion characteristics, allowing tighter tolerances. Also, factory Honda engines are one of the only mass produced engines to target specific bearing tolerances factory, using a manufacturer color coding system. The honda heads oiling system literally bathes the cams and rockers...making the heads extremely tolerant to abuses. All racing...straight to the dealer lot.

On the transmissions, Bisi E proved that the D16 early L3's were stronger than the S80/Y80's simply due to the smaller gear, and lower rotational mass. Bigger gears, doesn't equal stronger when rotational forces are concerned. The larger the gear, the more mass it has from center. It's only one piece of the puzzle, granted...point is...my cousins running 890whp through a stock GSR tranny...bottom line...and launching it on 27" slicks...

We are fighting the same battle here...I just built these cars for many, many years, and was considered one of the best at it simply due to the number of cars I built and tuned over the years, in addition to the amount of work I did from scratch. I didn't bolt cars together from the aftermarket...I was the aftermarket. No disrespect...I just disagree in some areas of your statement.

 

you can take low displacement engine with 200k on it and give it 400hp, but that doesn't mean it's been making that power for 200k miles.

I have absolutely no doubts to all of your claims, but again show me one that has been making that power for 400k miles without several full rebuilds. It simply doesn't exist.

Making 600hp out of a 1.8L engine on a stock block, you will need to rebuild that engine after 30 or so 1/4 mile runs. I agree it's a great amount of fun to build them up, but they are not nearly as reliable as a naturally aspirated larger displacement engine making the same power. There are plenty of track only c5's with over 100k miles on the race track bone stock. That's constant ***** to the wall WOT high rpm for 100k miles straight.

GM ran a test on the LS1 where they ran it at 6500 rpm for a month straight. When they disassembled it, there were absolutely no signs of wear. The LSx series engines are absolutely unmatched when it comes to reliability on the race track. This is why Corvette racing has done so well at LeMans.

 

If a 1.8 liter 4 cylinder produces 200hp and a 5.7 liter 8 cylinder produces 350hp for 200k miles, explain how the V8 is experiencing higher brake mean effective pressures or is enduring more stress.

Your thinking is that if an LS6 producing 405 hp lasts 200k miles, it's done so working harder than the 1.8 producing 200, or the 2.0 liter producing 240?

Funny you bring up ALMS....you must've missed the LMP1 and LMP2 titles for the past many years

HPD (Honda Performance Development) won American Le Mans Series LMP1 and LMP2 manufacturer titles in 2009; and the combined LMP category in 2010. HPD also won LMP2 engine manufacturer championship honors in 2011, then won the LMP1 and LMP2 manufacturer title in 2012.

 

 

ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....Honda?......ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz That's one of those cars it's hard to get excited about, oh look that's a Civic going by.......ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz

 

this is my old car, new owner driving it. stock jdm itr engine. had 255lbs of compression in all 4. head lifted the first weekend it was raced into the 11s


this is my friend myles with a sleeved b18c block after a 172mph run

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...type=1&theater

high hp hondas are not reliable regardless of what kind of magic you want people to believe. you can not make 5-10hp per cubic inch and claim it's going to go 200k.

formula 1 engines which are the best of breed are rebuilt every few races

there are plenty of guys on honda tech that say the same things about how reliable things are. and yes they are always working on their cars. that's not reliable when you have to replace parts every season. that's a race car and that's what you have with high boost cars

i saw the thread with the 600whp stock b18c1. i just can't remember if it died on the dyno or after a couple of passes.

i had a very reliable honda, 100% stock ITR engine. ran great, went and went.

by the way a low comp d series with forged pistons is not a stock motor. make 350whp with a 100% stock d series and run it on lap days, would be curious to see if it would complete 1 lap before you had 300deg oil or a rod through the block

 

You did just site "plenty" of Honda tech guys speaking upon reliability. In my years building the cars, aside from guys I know in the industry, very few shade tree guys were doing it right.

You look to guys like Bisi, Jeff from Full Race, various west coast guys (dr charles, Brian H, etc), there are plenty of people making power reliably.

I've built and tuned daily driven Honda's in excess of 300whp literally a number in excess of what I can recall. My work, my tuning, my execution was known for reliability. You can't site a bunch of 20 year old kids as a representation of how to do things the right way. Honda-Tech is littered with fools and wannabe's talking like they've done it all. They run an 11 sec pass and they think they broke some new ground.

 

completely different story than "boosting stock" places like endyn that do everything right or snyapse, golden eagle etc. that's a bunch of money and those motors are broken down and freshened up every so many hours. i agree making 350whp on a built motor can go for years but it's still going to be costly. actually a lot of guys have hit 300whp on a stock gsr or itr as low as 7-8lbs of boost with a good GTX turbo. you're still talking 4k minimum for the turbo setup and another 500 for the clutch and 200 for an oil cooler to do a reliable 300whp

that's one thing. getting past 450whp enters into a different world and a lot higher maintenance cost. stock engines don't live long at that power level and bearings get beat in built motors. that half mile pass myles did to hit 172mph just toasted the bearings and that was a sleeved block. crank flex and all kinds of crazy stuff comes into play with those all out cars. it's no different than corvettes. you can make 450-500whp pretty easily and pretty reliable on an LSx engine. by 700whp you need a built motor and by 1000hp you start running into crank flex, bearings needing to be replaced frequently and a full blown race engine maintenance schedule if you operate them hard

look at the level of overkill that went into the c5-r in order to make 620hp and actually have it hold together for 24hrs on the track

 

You mean ANY honda?
Cuz it would walk pretty much all production made hondas.

 

I am a car guy, I have more respect for the person who builds there own dream, (don't care..could be a homemade go cart with a chainsaw engine) than a jackass who buys glory and then turns around and talks a ton of ****...

Its about the car, the shine, the sound, the smell, the rush you get when you test fire that **** and the earth moves

The one place I find that there is really a culture of equality and acceptance is at the track. It doesn't matter if you are young/old rich/poor educated in school or on the street

if you are there for the cars you are accepted.

so why the battle over this?? in the end the man wanted some frank and open discussion on this and it turned into a train wreck..



his point is valid in that Honda has dumped racing technology to the production line much faster than GM as of late.

Honda heads flow and there is a guy at my local track that runs high 8s and this crazy car is streetable and doesn't break and he twist that thing like crazy.

Just because I build V8s, drink domestic beer and drink my coffee black, doesn't mean that people who build boosted 4s, drink imported beer or sip Scotch, and drink Frappuccino are wrong

good technical discussion is one thing but this seems almost crazy

 

Honest to god the guy was moving the next day and HAD to get rid of it. Nothing is wrong with it. It was an absolute STEAL!

 

That car isn't beating anything in a race with those tires.

 

So many car snobs....

I'm actually helping my buddy rebuild his 650hp Vtec engine right now. Next time we go to the track together he is going to hand me my ***. I'm going to have to finally build my single turbo setup just to keep up.

 

Why is this thread still open? seems to have as much of a purpose as the which car pine tree smells better argument....

 

Isn't this discussion on the wrong forum anybody bashing vettes should be on the rice forum
Bottom line it can make 3000 hp your still In a Honda period I'd rather lose in my c5 thn win in a Honda which was built to get grocerys end of story