Torque Management System - C6
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,649
Likes: 31
From: Central Florida
Originally Posted by glennhl
I just have to know, I'm not trying to a smart-a$$. Are you an engineer? If so, what are your credentials? Electrical, Mech, Civil? Registered?
I really don't mean to be rude, I am just very curious. I respect your postings and especially respect your ET's.
Thanks,
Glenn
I really don't mean to be rude, I am just very curious. I respect your postings and especially respect your ET's.
Thanks,
Glenn
Ranger
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,649
Likes: 31
From: Central Florida
Originally Posted by dennis50nj
I believe Julio knows more about tuning and tm then any tuner i have talked to. and i have talked to some of the so called best. thats why i went cartek.
Ranger
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
Likes: 6
From: Shiloh Ohio
Yep, sounds like the TM module does a little more than remove the ABS function. Those guys have a great reputation, I doubt if they would do something that would really put them in a safety liability position by removing the ABS system. 
Has ABS changed or something. Only way I have ever heard you can engage ABS is by applying your brakes with the brake pedal. What am I missing here?
Has ABS changed or something. Only way I have ever heard you can engage ABS is by applying your brakes with the brake pedal. What am I missing here?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,762
Likes: 4
From: Chandler Arizona
Originally Posted by Ranger
Have an general engineering degree, advanced degrees unrelated to engineering, and have spent the past 11 years as CEO of a software engineering company. I won't be more specific than that, google being what it is.
Ranger
Ranger
Thanks,
Glenn
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 7,695
Likes: 51
From: Imperial Beach CA
Originally Posted by beezeye
I don't know about that (but, as this thread points out, I don't think anybody knows everything about TM).
Check out this link to that tuner's website (click on Torque Mang.):
Cartek TM Eliminator
If you notice, it says: "This unit is designed to help prevent the ECU from reducing timing and throttle angle (torque management) under hard driving conditions and fast shifts".
Now I don't expect them to tell us all their proprietary info on how everything they sell works, so if TM does do something with ABS, that may be part of what their module does.
Butt......if they are saying that their module does something to stop the car from pulling timing and reducing throttle, then I would guess they believe that timing and throttle are involved in whatever the General designed into TM.
Bob
Check out this link to that tuner's website (click on Torque Mang.):
Cartek TM Eliminator
If you notice, it says: "This unit is designed to help prevent the ECU from reducing timing and throttle angle (torque management) under hard driving conditions and fast shifts".
Now I don't expect them to tell us all their proprietary info on how everything they sell works, so if TM does do something with ABS, that may be part of what their module does.
Butt......if they are saying that their module does something to stop the car from pulling timing and reducing throttle, then I would guess they believe that timing and throttle are involved in whatever the General designed into TM.
Bob
Last edited by jimman; Aug 5, 2006 at 05:20 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
Likes: 6
From: Shiloh Ohio
If someone wrote it then someone could read it. Just that simple.
That is the source for saying their module eliminates ABS. Plus the C5 had TM so they probably garnished some experience from that. You need a little more than that.
But I can tell you 100% for sure doing something to the ABS system won't make you quicker in the qtr mile. Nothing to do with it. ABS has nothing to do with acceleration at WOT with no brakes applied.
Just that simple. That is the source for saying their module eliminates ABS. Plus the C5 had TM so they probably garnished some experience from that. You need a little more than that.
But I can tell you 100% for sure doing something to the ABS system won't make you quicker in the qtr mile. Nothing to do with it. ABS has nothing to do with acceleration at WOT with no brakes applied.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,713
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by shurite44
But I can tell you 100% for sure doing something to the ABS system won't make you quicker in the qtr mile.
1) You are wrong in your point above. The C6 TM relies on functioning ABS inputs. You hose them up, and you can manage to avoid some of TM. I am not making a value judgement of whether that is smart or not, or worth it or not, just want to be sure it is clear that it can be done. Of course, you may have to trick the ECM a little bit to keep it from going to reduced power, too...
2) Without dredging up too many shed tears and smelly corpses, these couple of posts should serve to bring anyone fully up to speed in just three short posts, and no further knashing of teeth over the Cartek black box.
"I designed the Cartek torque management module and I can tell you that it does not have any effect on timing or air/fuel, it is not a tuning device."
"works but it is a hack ... have to splice and cut your wiring harness....when switched on it shuts off the abs which also shuts down the stability control"
"Cartek Module Installation Analysis..."
Last edited by TrackNoob; Aug 5, 2006 at 05:37 PM.
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Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 26,714
Likes: 344
From: Houston, TX
Originally Posted by Ranger
Beezeye, wouldn't waste the key strokes trying to post any objective info on the Cartek TM-module. Several of the engineering-challenged squatters on this thread long ago ran off Julio, master-tuner and owner of Cartek. Julio attempted a little education. But the engineering-challenged hooted him off the thread because they "know far more" than Julio and demanded he reveal his proprietary technology.
Quite breath-taking behavior from non-engineers, non-racers, non-wrenchers. But that's all months ago and a period on the thread that's best not repeated.
Ranger
Quite breath-taking behavior from non-engineers, non-racers, non-wrenchers. But that's all months ago and a period on the thread that's best not repeated.
Ranger
I was also getting information from another tuner who is at least as well known and respected as Cartek that contradicted what he was advertising.
If he decided to leave because he didn't like us asking basic questions that would help us decide whether or not to buy his module, please don't blame it on the forum members.
Last edited by jschindler; Aug 5, 2006 at 05:40 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,649
Likes: 31
From: Central Florida
Originally Posted by TrackNoob
...Without dredging up too many shed tears and smelly corpses, these couple of posts should serve to bring anyone fully up to speed in just three short posts, and no further knashing of teeth over the Cartek black box....
Dave Busch was driving the Cartek C6 test platform: Here is what he posted about it performance:
Originally Posted by Dave_Busch, Cartek
We went to the track yesterday and ran a new best in our C6 development car. The car has Kook’s 1 ¾” headers, high flow cats, 3.90 gears, HD out put shaft, 160 thermostat, Cartek fan controller, torque management elimination module, Cartek line lock kit, and 17” ET Streets and TA wheels....Yes the air intake is stock.
60’………1.552
330’……..4.700
1/8………7.332
MPH…….93.04
990………9.554
¼………...11.536
MPH……..118.23
60’………1.552
330’……..4.700
1/8………7.332
MPH…….93.04
990………9.554
¼………...11.536
MPH……..118.23
Ranger
Last edited by Ranger; Aug 5, 2006 at 06:14 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 26,714
Likes: 344
From: Houston, TX
Originally Posted by Ranger
I spent two November 2004 days at Atco track rentals with the NJ regulars. Sessions were hosted by Cartek.
Dave Busch was driving the Cartek C6 test platform: Here is what he posted about it performance:
So, the Cartek TM-module definitely works and it offers the advantage that it can be toggled on and off.
Ranger
Dave Busch was driving the Cartek C6 test platform: Here is what he posted about it performance:
So, the Cartek TM-module definitely works and it offers the advantage that it can be toggled on and off.
Ranger
Let me also add that the reason I questioned him on this back then is based upon the fact that he ran the car bone stock to a 13.1 at 109 and blamed TM for the poor times. Shortly after that, I ran a bone stock car to a 12.5 at 115. For all I know, he just didn't know how to turn TC and AH completely off, and that's all his module does.
Please understand that I don't know what the reality is/was. That is why questions were being asked so we could try to understand what was really going on. But we never got any answers to the questions.
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,649
Likes: 31
From: Central Florida
Originally Posted by SpinMonster
Headers, gears, real tires, their module and one hell of a driver= 11.5's on a stock motor.
My C6Z with TM runs the 660 in 7.33 on its 11.20 passes. My 330' was 4.88.
So the TM-toll is a ****. A module that eliminates TM has some appeal.
Ranger
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,649
Likes: 31
From: Central Florida
Originally Posted by jschindler
....how does that prove it works? The car is running several mods, including drag radials and a 3.9 rear end....
Ranger
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 7,695
Likes: 51
From: Imperial Beach CA
Know one and I mean know one cracked the computer on the C6 untill LS2's edits Beta version 6 months after the TM Module was introduced. Now again if you want to call TM reducing drag because your braking system has been altered go for it. Try running the Quarter with your foot on the brake.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
Likes: 6
From: Shiloh Ohio
An ABS system senses when a wheel is about to be locked up from the driver's braking inputs. I don't hit the brakes until I am in the run off area. If I don't touch my brakes why would a wheel think it is going to be locked up?
If it is doing more than this, well it simply is not an ABS system. That is what an ABS system does by definition.
Some are getting terms confused.
What does this have to do with a qtr mile run?
Another important thing you guys are missing is this. If Active Handling or ABS event occurs it will be displayed in the DIC. So you really don't need to guess about it, if it is working your car will tell you.
I never get an AH or ABS event displayed in the DIC during a qtr mile run. According to the manual that means you did not have an event with AH or ABS. Until someone can explain those obvious things to me I will say again, you AH and your ABS will not effect your qtr mile times, if it did you should know by the feel of the car or the DIC message.
If it is doing more than this, well it simply is not an ABS system. That is what an ABS system does by definition.
Some are getting terms confused.
What does this have to do with a qtr mile run?
Another important thing you guys are missing is this. If Active Handling or ABS event occurs it will be displayed in the DIC. So you really don't need to guess about it, if it is working your car will tell you.
I never get an AH or ABS event displayed in the DIC during a qtr mile run. According to the manual that means you did not have an event with AH or ABS. Until someone can explain those obvious things to me I will say again, you AH and your ABS will not effect your qtr mile times, if it did you should know by the feel of the car or the DIC message.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
Likes: 6
From: Shiloh Ohio
Another point I would like to make. Applying the brakes during acceleration would increase torque in the driveling not reduce it.
You don't hit your brakes with the throttle at WOT to reduce torque in the driveline.
You don't hit your brakes with the throttle at WOT to reduce torque in the driveline.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,271
Likes: 182
From: Manassas VA
Probably what they are talking about are the wheel speed sensors at each wheel. If you either block or substitute a pulse train in place of the normally generated signal you could defeat a system that was using these as data inputs.
I don't have any idea what is actually being done but after reading a lot of the posts on this thread I am sure neither does anyone else.
I don't have any idea what is actually being done but after reading a lot of the posts on this thread I am sure neither does anyone else.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
Likes: 6
From: Shiloh Ohio
Originally Posted by ronsc1985
Probably what they are talking about are the wheel speed sensors at each wheel. If you either block or substitute a pulse train in place of the normally generated signal you could defeat a system that was using these as data inputs.
I am sure the TM system could share information from other sensors. That makes sense. All I am saying is an ABS system is activated by the driver applying the brakes. If you don't hit your brakes, it don't work.
ABS does not effect qtr mile times.
