Torque Management System - C6
Racer
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 328
Likes: 2
From: springtown tx
Originally Posted by Whiterock1
Dyno runs would show evidence of torque management, if such a thing existed. I've never seen one that does. I think TM is 
, outside of traction control--or active suspension if you consider puting on the brakes torque "management." I've never read a word about tm in any car magazine, either. If it existed, they certainly would have had an article about it. Like I said .
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 7,695
Likes: 51
From: Imperial Beach CA
Originally Posted by Zig
here's some info about smokey.
"Aside from racing, Yunick's innovations include variable ratio power steering, the extended tip spark plug, reverse flow cooling systems, a high efficiency vapor carburetor, a high efficiency adiabatic engine, various engine testing devices, and a safety wall for racetracks, made of discarded tires, which France had refused to consider. He was granted twelve patents."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokey_Yunick
"A sly mechanical genius whose reputation as one of the premier mechanics in NASCAR hasn't diminished over the years, Henry Smokey Yunick was the "Best Damn Race Car Mechanic" who worked out of the "Best Damn Garage In Town," in Daytona Beach, Fla."
http://www.motorsportshalloffame.com...unick_main.htm
"The legendaric Smokey Yunick is not just a world champ in fusktrim(?) He is also genious. The best prove so far is called the "Hot Vapor". A new engine which will revolutionize the hole automotive industry. Smokey's self constructed 2 cylinder engine gives the double horsepower as a standard 4 cylinder engine of the same size. Further more is uses much less fuel and exhaust much less polution. Hot Vapor is almost too good to be true. But an enthusiastic Bostic is convinsed. It is true! "
"GM, Ford, Chrysler and many foreign car manufactors comes around in "Best damn garage in town". To stress test Smokeys test cars with the new engine. It is the best engineers from the manufators who show up andd they come several times. Smokey is laughin. They come back because they can not get the engine to spike. Some of them does everything to get the engine spiking. No one has succeseeded. "
http://schou.dk/hvce/
but, this wasn't meant to be a discussion about smokey, but rather some information about running too cool.
"Aside from racing, Yunick's innovations include variable ratio power steering, the extended tip spark plug, reverse flow cooling systems, a high efficiency vapor carburetor, a high efficiency adiabatic engine, various engine testing devices, and a safety wall for racetracks, made of discarded tires, which France had refused to consider. He was granted twelve patents."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokey_Yunick
"A sly mechanical genius whose reputation as one of the premier mechanics in NASCAR hasn't diminished over the years, Henry Smokey Yunick was the "Best Damn Race Car Mechanic" who worked out of the "Best Damn Garage In Town," in Daytona Beach, Fla."
http://www.motorsportshalloffame.com...unick_main.htm
"The legendaric Smokey Yunick is not just a world champ in fusktrim(?) He is also genious. The best prove so far is called the "Hot Vapor". A new engine which will revolutionize the hole automotive industry. Smokey's self constructed 2 cylinder engine gives the double horsepower as a standard 4 cylinder engine of the same size. Further more is uses much less fuel and exhaust much less polution. Hot Vapor is almost too good to be true. But an enthusiastic Bostic is convinsed. It is true! "
"GM, Ford, Chrysler and many foreign car manufactors comes around in "Best damn garage in town". To stress test Smokeys test cars with the new engine. It is the best engineers from the manufators who show up andd they come several times. Smokey is laughin. They come back because they can not get the engine to spike. Some of them does everything to get the engine spiking. No one has succeseeded. "
http://schou.dk/hvce/
but, this wasn't meant to be a discussion about smokey, but rather some information about running too cool.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 7,695
Likes: 51
From: Imperial Beach CA
Originally Posted by HITMAN99
Sure, be my guest.
Re your other post, about Smokey Yunick, he died in 2001. I remember one of his NASCAR "tricks" was to drill a small hole in the top of his headers. His competitors all thought it was another one of his secret tuning tricks that nobody could quite figure out. Later Smokey revealed that the hole was there so he could see the color of the exhaust gasses, determine the temperature, and then adjust the A/F mix accordingly.
A few comments about his thoughts on operating temps:
1. To my knowledge, he never tuned an LSx aluminum block engine. They do not necessarily have the same thermodynamics as an SBC.
2. Just because an engine has a 160 or 180 degree thermostat in it does not mean that it will operate at that temp. Most of these cars will still operate right around 195-200 degrees, depending on the fan settings, ambient temperature, operating conditions, etc. They just won't heat up as quickly.
3. There are dozens of reputable tuners and suppliers who offer the lower temp thermos, and/or recommend that optimal operating temps for the LSx engine is just under 200 degrees. I don't know of anyone who recommends operating temps above 220 degrees. Hundreds of independent dyno tests confirm this. Smokey MAY be right in theory, but in actual practice a lower operating temp seems to be optimal for LSx engines.
Re your other post, about Smokey Yunick, he died in 2001. I remember one of his NASCAR "tricks" was to drill a small hole in the top of his headers. His competitors all thought it was another one of his secret tuning tricks that nobody could quite figure out. Later Smokey revealed that the hole was there so he could see the color of the exhaust gasses, determine the temperature, and then adjust the A/F mix accordingly.
A few comments about his thoughts on operating temps:
1. To my knowledge, he never tuned an LSx aluminum block engine. They do not necessarily have the same thermodynamics as an SBC.
2. Just because an engine has a 160 or 180 degree thermostat in it does not mean that it will operate at that temp. Most of these cars will still operate right around 195-200 degrees, depending on the fan settings, ambient temperature, operating conditions, etc. They just won't heat up as quickly.
3. There are dozens of reputable tuners and suppliers who offer the lower temp thermos, and/or recommend that optimal operating temps for the LSx engine is just under 200 degrees. I don't know of anyone who recommends operating temps above 220 degrees. Hundreds of independent dyno tests confirm this. Smokey MAY be right in theory, but in actual practice a lower operating temp seems to be optimal for LSx engines.
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,565
Likes: 5
From: stafford country, va. Avatar: Me on turn 3 @ Bristol (The World's Fastest Half-Mile)
Originally Posted by HITMAN99
Sure, be my guest.
Re your other post, about Smokey Yunick, he died in 2001.
Re your other post, about Smokey Yunick, he died in 2001.
I remember one of his NASCAR "tricks" was to drill a small hole in the top of his headers. His competitors all thought it was another one of his secret tuning tricks that nobody could quite figure out. Later Smokey revealed that the hole was there so he could see the color of the exhaust gasses, determine the temperature, and then adjust the A/F mix accordingly.
A few comments about his thoughts on operating temps:
1. To my knowledge, he never tuned an LSx aluminum block engine. They do not necessarily have the same thermodynamics as an SBC.
1. To my knowledge, he never tuned an LSx aluminum block engine. They do not necessarily have the same thermodynamics as an SBC.
2. Just because an engine has a 160 or 180 degree thermostat in it does not mean that it will operate at that temp. Most of these cars will still operate right around 195-200 degrees, depending on the fan settings, ambient temperature, operating conditions, etc. They just won't heat up as quickly.
i find it real interesting that he was saying to obtain max. power from the sbc it should run around 200-220 but not too much higher than that.
doesn't the stock fan settings have them coming on around 221 ?
3. There are dozens of reputable tuners and suppliers who offer the lower temp thermos, and/or recommend that optimal operating temps for the LSx engine is just under 200 degrees. I don't know of anyone who recommends operating temps above 220 degrees. Hundreds of independent dyno tests confirm this. Smokey MAY be right in theory, but in actual practice a lower operating temp seems to be optimal for LSx engines.
Last edited by Zig; Sep 13, 2006 at 10:28 AM.
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,565
Likes: 5
From: stafford country, va. Avatar: Me on turn 3 @ Bristol (The World's Fastest Half-Mile)
Originally Posted by jimman
Aluminum is even more aggressive in regard to temp. Thermal conductivity is greater than a factor of two over iron and trying to maintain a decent Thermal Hysteresis to maintain proper head temperature one needs to run them hot.
for us uneducated types, would you mind elaborating ?
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,565
Likes: 5
From: stafford country, va. Avatar: Me on turn 3 @ Bristol (The World's Fastest Half-Mile)
Originally Posted by jimman
NASCAR has interesting stories about their races and racers. One phrase that I found interesting, "There are Cheaters and Losers", Junior Johnson. One story has it that Smokey had his car impounded during qualifying at Daytona because NASCAR said he had an illegal gas tank. After the tank was removed from the car it was said he was pissed, got in the car started and drove it to his garage, which was in Daytona, without any gas tank.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,208
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by zippin zee
Most of the dyno runs I have seen the car was in 4th and was well up into the rpm range (over 3000) before the throttle was floored. If you have actually driven a C6 and can't feel it then all I can say is I am am sorry. There is several people on here you can start a club with but the membership is going to limited.
Last edited by Whiterock1; Sep 13, 2006 at 12:07 PM.
Corvette Stories
The Best of Corvette for Corvette Enthusiasts
Top 10 Most Explosive Corvettes Ever Made: Power-to-Weight Ratio Ranked!
Joe Kucinski
150 hp to 1,250 hp: Every Corvette Generation Compared by the Specs That Matter
Joe Kucinski
8 Coolest Corvette Pace Cars (and Replicas) of All Time
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Corvette Engines RANKED by Peak Torque (70+ Years of Muscle!)
Joe Kucinski
Corvette ZR1X Will Be Pacing the Indy 500, And Could Probably Race, Too!
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Corvettes Coming to Mecum Indy 2026!
Brett Foote
Top 10 C9 Corvette MUST-HAVES to Fix These C8 Generation Flaws!
Michael S. Palmer
10 Revolutionary 'Corvette Firsts' Most People Don't Know
Joe Kucinski
5 Reasons to Upgrade to an LS6-Powered Corvette; 5 Reasons to Stay LT2
Michael S. Palmer
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,796
Likes: 1
From: Annandale VA
I don't recall anyone saying that the C6 is "such a dog". What I have heard Ranger say is that your Z-51 may be able to produce faster 60' times at the track than his Z06, and that the lower his 60' time is, the slower his 330' time is. This is not theory, it's real world track results from a very experienced drag racer. TM absolutely, positively does exist, and you can see the HPTuner screens where you can edit it out (at least for some cars).
What is not clear is exactly what algorithms are used to measure TQ, and exactly how it is managed. It's also not clear how the programming is different between an M-6, an A4, an A6, and a Z06. The A6 apparently has its own computer, and over 100 different tranny control tables.
If you don't believe it exists, then you don't need to worry about it. I have an A6, I believe it does exist, and so does HPTuners. When their new beta software is wrung out by the many dyno tuners out there, I'm sure that more information will come to light. When the non-beta production version of HPTuners comes out, I plan to buy it and use it for tuning. The very first thing I will do is edit out TM, or at least scale it back some. Until then, I will wait patiently.
What is not clear is exactly what algorithms are used to measure TQ, and exactly how it is managed. It's also not clear how the programming is different between an M-6, an A4, an A6, and a Z06. The A6 apparently has its own computer, and over 100 different tranny control tables.
If you don't believe it exists, then you don't need to worry about it. I have an A6, I believe it does exist, and so does HPTuners. When their new beta software is wrung out by the many dyno tuners out there, I'm sure that more information will come to light. When the non-beta production version of HPTuners comes out, I plan to buy it and use it for tuning. The very first thing I will do is edit out TM, or at least scale it back some. Until then, I will wait patiently.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 27,252
Likes: 132
From: Short Hills, NJ
Originally Posted by Whiterock1
Dyno runs would show evidence of torque management, if such a thing existed.
Originally Posted by Whiterock1
I've never read a word about tm in any car magazine, either. If it existed, they certainly would have had an article about it. Like I said .
. And the likes of GM High Tech Performance, Corvette Enthusiast and High Performance Pontiac, magazines that deal specifically with the LSX engines HAVE in fact talked about it.
And someone comparing characteristics of an iron block/heads, non computer controlled, carburated SBC from 1975 to a modern day aluminum EFI motor is clearly the spewings of the uninformed IMO.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
Likes: 6
From: Shiloh Ohio
Well I will comment on the coolant temp. A C5 or C6 will run a qtr mile faster at 180 as opposed to 200 or higher. Below 170 you will also begin to slow slightly.
I know this from bracket drag racing. I have done literally hundreds of runs in C5's and C6's. I commonly predict my dial in dead on and I am almost always within 1-2 hundreds of a second. I mention this so members realize there are some people commenting on TM and engine coolants temps from a practical standpoint, not theoretical. If my engine temp goes up to 200 or higher I will lose .05 give or take a hundred.
That's fact, the rest of the speculation without experience is just that. Incorrect speculation by someone who probably does not have the practical experience to know any better. Just that simple.
On the speculation that TM does not exist. That too is incorrect. Many new cars use TM. Not just the C6. Do a search on the Internet and you will find tech articles on TM from anything from a Ford Taurus to a Z-06. Call the people at LS2 edit or HP tuner and tell them there is no TM. TM is a common computer control in modern cars, get used to it.
I know this from bracket drag racing. I have done literally hundreds of runs in C5's and C6's. I commonly predict my dial in dead on and I am almost always within 1-2 hundreds of a second. I mention this so members realize there are some people commenting on TM and engine coolants temps from a practical standpoint, not theoretical. If my engine temp goes up to 200 or higher I will lose .05 give or take a hundred.
That's fact, the rest of the speculation without experience is just that. Incorrect speculation by someone who probably does not have the practical experience to know any better. Just that simple.
On the speculation that TM does not exist. That too is incorrect. Many new cars use TM. Not just the C6. Do a search on the Internet and you will find tech articles on TM from anything from a Ford Taurus to a Z-06. Call the people at LS2 edit or HP tuner and tell them there is no TM. TM is a common computer control in modern cars, get used to it.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
Likes: 6
From: Shiloh Ohio
Ok, I will also add this since I am on the subject of drag racing and thermostats.
Fan settings, yes you should change them to correspond with the opening of the thermostat. This is how you achieve your set point for your operating temps.
The argument that a lower T-stat does not effect operating temps fly's in the face of logic. If that is the case why not a 250 degree thermostat?
For drag racing a lower thermostat (160), enables you to control your launch temp. How? Your coolant temp will now heat from 160 to your set point slower than it would with the stock Tstat (186-187). This is beneficial for consistency and faster ET's.
Although there is a technique in bracket racing where people try to run as hot as they can for consistency. The theory is you can always heat you engine up but it is difficult to cool it in the staging lanes. I have no problem with this technique by the way. I just prefer to take my chances with a lower T-stat and launching at 180.
If I just had a street car, no racing I would run the stock T-stat by the way.
Fan settings, yes you should change them to correspond with the opening of the thermostat. This is how you achieve your set point for your operating temps.
The argument that a lower T-stat does not effect operating temps fly's in the face of logic. If that is the case why not a 250 degree thermostat?
For drag racing a lower thermostat (160), enables you to control your launch temp. How? Your coolant temp will now heat from 160 to your set point slower than it would with the stock Tstat (186-187). This is beneficial for consistency and faster ET's.
Although there is a technique in bracket racing where people try to run as hot as they can for consistency. The theory is you can always heat you engine up but it is difficult to cool it in the staging lanes. I have no problem with this technique by the way. I just prefer to take my chances with a lower T-stat and launching at 180.
If I just had a street car, no racing I would run the stock T-stat by the way.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 27,252
Likes: 132
From: Short Hills, NJ
Originally Posted by shurite44
A C5 or C6 will run a qtr mile faster at 180 as opposed to 200 or higher.
If my engine temp goes up to 200 or higher I will lose .05 give or take a hundred.
If my engine temp goes up to 200 or higher I will lose .05 give or take a hundred.
Originally Posted by shurite44
The argument that a lower T-stat does not effect operating temps fly's in the face of logic. If that is the case why not a 250 degree thermostat?
For drag racing a lower thermostat (160), enables you to control your launch temp. How? Your coolant temp will now heat from 160 to your set point slower than it would with the stock Tstat (186-187). This is beneficial for consistency and faster ET's.
For drag racing a lower thermostat (160), enables you to control your launch temp. How? Your coolant temp will now heat from 160 to your set point slower than it would with the stock Tstat (186-187). This is beneficial for consistency and faster ET's.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,549
Likes: 27
From: Southampton NJ
Originally Posted by HITMAN99
Sure, be my guest.
Re your other post, about Smokey Yunick, he died in 2001. I remember one of his NASCAR "tricks" was to drill a small hole in the top of his headers. His competitors all thought it was another one of his secret tuning tricks that nobody could quite figure out. Later Smokey revealed that the hole was there so he could see the color of the exhaust gasses, determine the temperature, and then adjust the A/F mix accordingly.
A few comments about his thoughts on operating temps:
1. To my knowledge, he never tuned an LSx aluminum block engine. They do not necessarily have the same thermodynamics as an SBC.
2. Just because an engine has a 160 or 180 degree thermostat in it does not mean that it will operate at that temp. Most of these cars will still operate right around 195-200 degrees, depending on the fan settings, ambient temperature, operating conditions, etc. They just won't heat up as quickly.
3. There are dozens of reputable tuners and suppliers who offer the lower temp thermos, and/or recommend that optimal operating temps for the LSx engine is just under 200 degrees. I don't know of anyone who recommends operating temps above 220 degrees. Hundreds of independent dyno tests confirm this. Smokey MAY be right in theory, but in actual practice a lower operating temp seems to be optimal for LSx engines.
Re your other post, about Smokey Yunick, he died in 2001. I remember one of his NASCAR "tricks" was to drill a small hole in the top of his headers. His competitors all thought it was another one of his secret tuning tricks that nobody could quite figure out. Later Smokey revealed that the hole was there so he could see the color of the exhaust gasses, determine the temperature, and then adjust the A/F mix accordingly.
A few comments about his thoughts on operating temps:
1. To my knowledge, he never tuned an LSx aluminum block engine. They do not necessarily have the same thermodynamics as an SBC.
2. Just because an engine has a 160 or 180 degree thermostat in it does not mean that it will operate at that temp. Most of these cars will still operate right around 195-200 degrees, depending on the fan settings, ambient temperature, operating conditions, etc. They just won't heat up as quickly.
3. There are dozens of reputable tuners and suppliers who offer the lower temp thermos, and/or recommend that optimal operating temps for the LSx engine is just under 200 degrees. I don't know of anyone who recommends operating temps above 220 degrees. Hundreds of independent dyno tests confirm this. Smokey MAY be right in theory, but in actual practice a lower operating temp seems to be optimal for LSx engines.
you are right hittman and nascar and 1/4 mile are tottaly different and the in times smokey raced fluids were not the same. no mobil 1 in the weights we use today. the main reason being oil temp you had to thin it out with coolant temps.Zig i do remember smokey i seen that episode of legends of nascar a couple of years ago. but what dopes that have to do with torque management. and the only cool temp afect on our c6s is you have to reach 167 degrees in a certain time fram within so many cycles or limp mode can happen .and other computer problems.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
Likes: 6
From: Shiloh Ohio
[QUOTE=dennis50njand the only cool temp afect on our c6s is you have to reach 167 degrees in a certain time fram within so many cycles or limp mode can happen .and other computer problems.[/QUOTE]
Did not know this, thanks good post Dennis.
[/QUOTE]Did not know this, thanks good post Dennis.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,208
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by LS1LT1
Wrong. A dyno run would NOT show it.
Magazines? What like Car and Driver? Please don't tell me you're quoting THEM as gospel now.
And the likes of GM High Tech Performance, Corvette Enthusiast and High Performance Pontiac, magazines that deal specifically with the LSX engines HAVE in fact talked about it.
And someone comparing characteristics of an iron block/heads, non computer controlled, carburated SBC from 1975 to a modern day aluminum EFI motor is clearly the spewings of the uninformed IMO.
Magazines? What like Car and Driver? Please don't tell me you're quoting THEM as gospel now.
And the likes of GM High Tech Performance, Corvette Enthusiast and High Performance Pontiac, magazines that deal specifically with the LSX engines HAVE in fact talked about it.
And someone comparing characteristics of an iron block/heads, non computer controlled, carburated SBC from 1975 to a modern day aluminum EFI motor is clearly the spewings of the uninformed IMO.
But, I guess I just "spew because I'm uniformed." Until I see something objectively supporting the illogic of tm, I say it's
. However, in the scheme of things, I really don't gas about the flat world experts who take it so personally. But I guess the spirit of Duntov must have spoken to them in a vision. That makes them all holy men, heaven help anyone on the forum who disagrees...
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,549
Likes: 27
From: Southampton NJ
Originally Posted by Whiterock1
I don't agree with you. And while I have no reason to doubt your statement that you've read articles, I haven't--and I read 10 +car mags a month. My '97 and 2000 WS6 Trans Ams were hardly 1975 era iron block/heads. The LS1 in the 2000 was identical to the C5, just as the LT1 was the same as the Vette's in the '97. And I know what pulled timing is like, as I stated, due to knock sensors "managing the torque." Also you sure as hell would see an indication of tm on a dyno run, depending upon the parameters--if it existed. Or are the experts saying they don't see pulled timing on a dyno sheet from an overheated engine?
But, I guess I just "spew because I'm uniformed." Until I see something objectively supporting the illogic of tm, I say it's . However, in the scheme of things, I really don't gas about the flat world experts who take it so personally. But I guess the spirit of Duntov must have spoken to them in a vision. That makes them all holy men, heaven help anyone on the forum who disagrees...
But, I guess I just "spew because I'm uniformed." Until I see something objectively supporting the illogic of tm, I say it's
. However, in the scheme of things, I really don't gas about the flat world experts who take it so personally. But I guess the spirit of Duntov must have spoken to them in a vision. That makes them all holy men, heaven help anyone on the forum who disagrees...you are wrong you wont see tm on dyno because you cant accelerate that fast on the dyno
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
Likes: 6
From: Shiloh Ohio
Originally Posted by Whiterock1
I don't agree with you. And while I have no reason to doubt your statement that you've read articles, I haven't--and I read 10 +car mags a month. My '97 and 2000 WS6 Trans Ams were hardly 1975 era iron block/heads. The LS1 in the 2000 was identical to the C5, just as the LT1 was the same as the Vette's in the '97. And I know what pulled timing is like, as I stated, due to knock sensors "managing the torque." Also you sure as hell would see an indication of tm on a dyno run, depending upon the parameters--if it existed. Or are the experts saying they don't see pulled timing on a dyno sheet from an overheated engine?
But, I guess I just "spew because I'm uniformed." Until I see something objectively supporting the illogic of tm, I say it's . However, in the scheme of things, I really don't gas about the flat world experts who take it so personally. But I guess the spirit of Duntov must have spoken to them in a vision. That makes them all holy men, heaven help anyone on the forum who disagrees...
But, I guess I just "spew because I'm uniformed." Until I see something objectively supporting the illogic of tm, I say it's
. However, in the scheme of things, I really don't gas about the flat world experts who take it so personally. But I guess the spirit of Duntov must have spoken to them in a vision. That makes them all holy men, heaven help anyone on the forum who disagrees...
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 27,252
Likes: 132
From: Short Hills, NJ
Originally Posted by Whiterock1
Also you sure as hell would see an indication of tm on a dyno run, depending upon the parameters--if it existed. Or are the experts saying they don't see pulled timing on a dyno sheet from an overheated engine?
But torque management generally only rears it's ugly head under hard acceleration WHEN THE CAR HAS TRACTION, not while spinning it's tires and NOT while spinning a metal drum which is also FAR cry from accelerating a 3400+ pound (with driver) car that's dead hooking (aka: getting perfect traction) on the street or track.
Last edited by LS1LT1; Sep 13, 2006 at 05:34 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 7,695
Likes: 51
From: Imperial Beach CA
Originally Posted by LS1LT1
We're talking about TM on the dyno here, NOT an overheated engine. Of course a hotter engine will pull timing on a dyno, no one is refuting that.
But torque management generally only rears it's ugly head under hard acceleration WHEN THE CAR HAS TRACTION, not while spinning it's tires and NOT while spinning a metal drum which is also FAR cry from accelerating a 3400+ pound (with driver) car that's dead hooking (aka: getting perfect traction) ont he street or track.
But torque management generally only rears it's ugly head under hard acceleration WHEN THE CAR HAS TRACTION, not while spinning it's tires and NOT while spinning a metal drum which is also FAR cry from accelerating a 3400+ pound (with driver) car that's dead hooking (aka: getting perfect traction) ont he street or track.