Torque Management System - C6
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,208
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by shurite44
Just google torque management. You will see a host of articles from different manufaturers. Nearly all new cars use some form of TM in the computer program.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 27,253
Likes: 133
From: Short Hills, NJ
Originally Posted by jimman
So with perfect traction and a 3200lb car starting a 2000rpm's you can go from Zero mph to X mph with no reduction in engine rpm's or parameters.
So basically you're claiming that what we're calling TM is merely just the normal 'rpm/power drop off' that occurs between shifts (auto or manual) during hard acceleration?
And C5 Z06s with roughly the same power output/weight running quarter miles that are in some cases over 6/10ths quicker, they magically avoided this rpm drop off?
Racer
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 328
Likes: 2
From: springtown tx
Originally Posted by Whiterock1
I "actually drive a C6" virtually every day, as one sits in my garage. And I have actually driven high performance cars since 1969. I know what it feels like when timing is pulled because of a knock sensor kicking in, and I know what it feels like when revs are dropped prior to an upshift on a slush box. While I can't speak to the autos on C6s, I can say that no timing is pulled on my m-6 2006 Z51 when I run it through the gears. And, maybe it's just me, but dyno runs I've witnessed/participated in didn't granny shift in lower gears getting up to 4th. There would have been documented indications of so called torque management. How do the mags get 4.1 0-60 and 12.5 quarters if the car is such a dog? You can't disprove a negative, so the discussion is pointless. I think the round earth contingent had a limited membership at one timel, too...didn't make it any less correct. 
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
Likes: 6
From: Shiloh Ohio
Originally Posted by Whiterock1
I agree with that--ultimately that's what traction control/assist is, and often PASM/Active Handling, et al. Good advise on Google. I'll check it out.
My understanding is TC is measured at the wheels, comparing front to rear wheel speed to determine if the rears are spinning.
AH uses other type sensors to help maintain directional control but I do not see as they have any TM functions.
TM from what I have read is measured at the engine using the air/fuel/and exhaust sensors. For TM to work you really don't need any input from sensors at the tires or wheel.
TC can reduce power I agree with that, but the reason for the reduction in power is basically the opposite of a TM function.
Last edited by shurite44; Sep 13, 2006 at 06:15 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,565
Likes: 5
From: stafford country, va. Avatar: Me on turn 3 @ Bristol (The World's Fastest Half-Mile)
Originally Posted by Whiterock1
I "actually drive a C6" virtually every day...
'I think the round earth contingent had a limited membership at one time, too...didn't make it any less correct.
'I think the round earth contingent had a limited membership at one time, too...didn't make it any less correct.
Last edited by Zig; Sep 13, 2006 at 06:20 PM. Reason: no edit:" round earth contingent had limited membership.. hah, at one time wasn't the world flat... hahahah" - just thought that was funny.
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,565
Likes: 5
From: stafford country, va. Avatar: Me on turn 3 @ Bristol (The World's Fastest Half-Mile)
Originally Posted by dennis50nj
:Zig i do remember smokey i seen that episode of legends of nascar a couple of years ago.
but what does that have to do with torque management.
I brought in some info (quoted the source and provided the link to additional information) about running too cool and this happens.
and the only cool temp afect on our c6s is you have to reach 167 degrees in a certain time fram within so many cycles or limp mode can happen .and other computer problems.
wow..
what, is this for the folks in alaska ? the car says, hay, it's cold outside, i ain't going out there. could you elaborate. i understand limp home or reduced power mode. but i don't understand 167 activating it. is that something like running of half-an engine.
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,565
Likes: 5
From: stafford country, va. Avatar: Me on turn 3 @ Bristol (The World's Fastest Half-Mile)
Originally Posted by HITMAN99
I don't recall anyone saying that the C6 is "such a dog". What I have heard Ranger say is that your Z-51 may be able to produce faster 60' times at the track than his Z06,
I had no idea ... how would that be possible ????? unless.... no that couldn't be it.
my car will beat his then that is so funny.... that also implies the z51 (and argueably the mn6 f55) will beat the vipers.... hhhmmmm.. nice.....
and that the lower his 60' time is, the slower his 330' time is.
This is not theory, it's real world track results from a very experienced drag racer.
TM absolutely, positively does exist, and you can see the HPTuner screens where you can edit it out (at least for some cars).
TM absolutely, positively does exist, and you can see the HPTuner screens where you can edit it out (at least for some cars).
What is not clear is exactly what algorithms are used to measure TQ, and exactly how it is managed. It's also not clear how the programming is different between an M-6, an A4, an A6, and a Z06. The A6 apparently has its own computer, and over 100 different tranny control tables.
If you don't believe it exists, then you don't need to worry about it. I have an A6, I believe it does exist, and so does HPTuners. When their new beta software is wrung out by the many dyno tuners out there, I'm sure that more information will come to light. When the non-beta production version of HPTuners comes out, I plan to buy it and use it for tuning. The very first thing I will do is edit out TM, or at least scale it back some. Until then, I will wait patiently.
would you mind letting everyone know what happens when the only the TM limits are raised. No other timing or air/fuel ratios are modified. what happens when the only thing modified is the tm limits ? what happens when the limits are lower by a value of 50 ? etc.
seems like a simple test to me.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 14,950
Likes: 264
From: St. Louis, MO
St. Jude Donor '08
Originally Posted by dennis50nj
you are wrong you wont see tm on dyno because you cant accelerate that fast on the dyno
If you don't believe it exists, have it tuned out and then drive your car. Then see if you still think it doesn't exist! My car was night and day.
Can't believe I'm jumping in this fray......
Corvette Stories
The Best of Corvette for Corvette Enthusiasts
Top 10 Most Explosive Corvettes Ever Made: Power-to-Weight Ratio Ranked!
Joe Kucinski
150 hp to 1,250 hp: Every Corvette Generation Compared by the Specs That Matter
Joe Kucinski
8 Coolest Corvette Pace Cars (and Replicas) of All Time
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Corvette Engines RANKED by Peak Torque (70+ Years of Muscle!)
Joe Kucinski
Corvette ZR1X Will Be Pacing the Indy 500, And Could Probably Race, Too!
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Corvettes Coming to Mecum Indy 2026!
Brett Foote
Top 10 C9 Corvette MUST-HAVES to Fix These C8 Generation Flaws!
Michael S. Palmer
10 Revolutionary 'Corvette Firsts' Most People Don't Know
Joe Kucinski
5 Reasons to Upgrade to an LS6-Powered Corvette; 5 Reasons to Stay LT2
Michael S. Palmer
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,549
Likes: 27
From: Southampton NJ
Originally Posted by Joe_G
On every dyno run I've seen they don't start sampling until you are in 4th gear (direct). So TM wouldn't kick in. However, there is a dyno run posted here somewhere showing alleged TM at hard vs. soft shift points.
If you don't believe it exists, have it tuned out and then drive your car. Then see if you still think it doesn't exist! My car was night and day.
Can't believe I'm jumping in this fray......
If you don't believe it exists, have it tuned out and then drive your car. Then see if you still think it doesn't exist! My car was night and day.
Can't believe I'm jumping in this fray......
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,549
Likes: 27
From: Southampton NJ
Originally Posted by Zig
dag gone it, wish i saw it.
i really don't know, i simply proposed the possibility of 'timing beling pulled as the TM feeling and we got off onto Smokey.
I brought in some info (quoted the source and provided the link to additional information) about running too cool and this happens.
if the engine does not reach 167 degrees in a specific time frame the system will shut-down, into a limited power mode ?
wow.. what, is this for the folks in alaska ? the car says, hay, it's cold outside, i ain't going out there.
could you elaborate. i understand limp home or reduced power mode. but i don't understand 167 activating it. is that something like running of half-an engine.
i really don't know, i simply proposed the possibility of 'timing beling pulled as the TM feeling and we got off onto Smokey.
I brought in some info (quoted the source and provided the link to additional information) about running too cool and this happens.
if the engine does not reach 167 degrees in a specific time frame the system will shut-down, into a limited power mode ?
wow..
what, is this for the folks in alaska ? the car says, hay, it's cold outside, i ain't going out there. could you elaborate. i understand limp home or reduced power mode. but i don't understand 167 activating it. is that something like running of half-an engine.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 14,950
Likes: 264
From: St. Louis, MO
St. Jude Donor '08
Originally Posted by dennis50nj
i was telling the other guy you dont see it on the dyno. because he said if it exists why hasnt he seen it on the dyno i have said all along it does exist i am one you side joe i think we need to get tm uniforms so we know who the players are
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,551
Likes: 4
From: Livingston Texas
Originally Posted by Whiterock1
Dyno runs would show evidence of torque management, if such a thing existed. I've never seen one that does. I think TM is 
, outside of traction control--or active suspension if you consider puting on the brakes torque "management." I've never read a word about tm in any car magazine, either. If it existed, they certainly would have had an article about it. Like I said .I thought I already posted this chart in this thread but instead of looking for it, here it is again.
This dyno was done while speed shifting, notice the drops in performance versus normal dyno runs.
When the car was taken to a steady rpm in 4th then floored it produced "normal" numbers 346 hp and roughly 348 tq.
TM will show up on a dyno, track or street. It all depends on how you drive.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,713
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by Zig
if you've got the answers, provide them.
how would that be possible ?????
my car will beat his then
that is so funny....
i was also under the impression
this has been asked several time but nobody has been willing to provide results for the following.
would you mind letting everyone know
what happens when
what happens when
etc.
seems like a simple test to me.
how would that be possible ?????
my car will beat his then
that is so funny....
i was also under the impression
this has been asked several time but nobody has been willing to provide results for the following.
would you mind letting everyone know
what happens when
what happens when
etc.
seems like a simple test to me.
[/QUOTE]
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 27,253
Likes: 133
From: Short Hills, NJ
Originally Posted by dennis50nj
JoeG what part dont you comprehend. i have been telling everyone that TM DOES EXIST for more than a year. are you dizzy from the g force on the turns or what.
for more than a year. are you dizzy from the g force on the turns or what.
I think he was suggesting that others go try it (have it tuned out/removed) and then talk about whether or not it exists, not for you to do it. 
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,549
Likes: 27
From: Southampton NJ
Originally Posted by LS1LT1
Yeah I think he knows that Dennis, he was agreeing with you. I think he was suggesting that others go try it (have it tuned out/removed) and then talk about whether or not it exists, not for you to do it.
I think he was suggesting that others go try it (have it tuned out/removed) and then talk about whether or not it exists, not for you to do it. very sorry JoeG
thanks Marc you can be my interpeter
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 27,253
Likes: 133
From: Short Hills, NJ
Originally Posted by dennis50nj
i guess i am getting to old and cant comprehend. hey i'm from the pines. my comunication skills are poor.
very sorry JoeG thanks Marc you can be my interpeter
very sorry JoeG
thanks Marc you can be my interpeter
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,549
Likes: 27
From: Southampton NJ
Originally Posted by LS1LT1
Or you could just delete that (and this) post before he sees it, I'll delete mine and no one will be the wiser.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,259
Likes: 16
From: Monroe Township New Jersey
St. Jude Donor '05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16
St. Jude donor in memory of jpee '14
We can solve this issue very easy. Anyone who has run the 1/4 mile more than once should see the same thing on their time slips.
A better sixty foot time will result in a longer 330 & 1000 foot times when compared to another run with a slower sixty foot time.
Example
run 1 _____ run 2
60 foot ..... 2.078 _____ 2.136
330 foot ..... 5.602 ____ 5.581
1000 foot ..... 10.906 ____ 10.784
Now why did I go slower with a better sixty foot ????? Voo Doo, those extra meat ***** the night before or TM/abuse mode. Now if you all look at you time slips I bet most if not all have the same result.............OK now we can finally end this discussion
Anyone who has run the 1/4 mile more than once should see the same thing on their time slips.A better sixty foot time will result in a longer 330 & 1000 foot times when compared to another run with a slower sixty foot time.
Example
run 1 _____ run 2
60 foot ..... 2.078 _____ 2.136
330 foot ..... 5.602 ____ 5.581
1000 foot ..... 10.906 ____ 10.784
Now why did I go slower with a better sixty foot ????? Voo Doo, those extra meat ***** the night before or TM/abuse mode. Now if you all look at you time slips I bet most if not all have the same result.............OK now we can finally end this discussion