My time slips do not check with that theory. In almost all cases a faster sixty leads to faster times down the track.

Maybe some others can check theirs.

 

You betcha boys, I should have been more clear, sorry. I drove a C5 for years - 1/4 mile and HPDE. (and many cars before that). The first time I took my C6 to the track, even my wife said, why are you letting off on shifts? I was sorely disappointed in the car's performance.

If my wife notices the car seems slow, let me tell you, it's real!

LS1LT1, you are exactly correct - those who don't think it's real, have your car tuned and TM taken out. Then report back. I am sure happy with my car after the Mike Norris tune. Don't forget, he asked me, how much TM do you want tuned out? Guess what I said.

 

again, how does this prove the existance or explain the workings of TM ?

please provide the details of the 'tune'. did he also adjust the a/f ratio, any timing changes, any pulse rate changes etc. or did he only raise the tm limits ad left everything else the same ???

i don't disageee that a 'tune' will provide additional performance, in fact wasn't the conclusion from my earlier posts regarding the engine dyno runs and timing being pulled.

come on guys (all of you tm believers) if this is how you work professionally i really feel sorry for you company.

treat this as a project. provide the details instead of just skuttlebutt. be able to show concrete repeatable tests that anyone can perform.

the post about the 60' and 330' times is a good start. he was saying a better 60' will create a worse 330'. can this be proven/ disproven ?

yes, AUTOMATICS HAVE TM, no need to try to convince anyone the TM exists in the automatic (that's how they work, ot just the c6 but EVERY 'convential' automatic - cvt, etc. excluded), that's why some of us buy manuals, no need for that automatic.

please please do some research before running off at the mouth.

just because YOUR tuner told you it's in there doesn't work, have him provide the details.

let's hear from some folks that actually build engines, put together transmissions, etc.

let's EXPLAIN TM, not just talk about it's effects.

propose a hypothisis, let's develope a theory, etc. etc. didn't you guys learn anything in school or did you just learn the answes for the test and not actually learn how to think.

this isn't directed at joe_g, just wan'ted to comment on his comment then got off on the rant.

 

I have only seen this feedback re a C6 Z06. The inference is that the impact of TM on an M6 car is much more pronounced in the Z06 than in the Coupe. Makes sense, as there is much more TQ to be managed.

 

Physician, heal thyself.

 

I'dliketounderstandyoubutwithnopucntuati onitslikenospacesandhardtoread

 

didn't i read that somewhere ????

performed in 2003.

"Spark Ignition Engine Torque Management
Grant A. Ingram1, Matthew A. Franchek,
Venkataramanan Balakrishnan, and Gopichandra Surnillay
Purdue University (West Lafayette, IN), yFord Motor Company (Dearborn, MI)

".... Experimental Validation of the Torque Controller:

The H∞ torque controller was implemented in real
time via dSpace and an engine dynamometer. A block diagram
of the implementation is provided in Figure 8. Engine
speed and torque conditions for 25, 47, 58, and 74 mph, as
specified in Table 1, were investigated.
Results of the torque controller for λ disturbances are shown
in Figure 9. In this case, the engine operating condition was
set to 25, 47, 58, and 74 mph and λ was stepped between 0.7
and 1.3. The torque was recorded using a load cell filtered
at 25 Hz. For the worst case, torque variations were 9.1
percent of nominal.
In this particular case, a likely cause of the torque variations
is the poor extension of spark timing beyond stoichiometry.
Haider [19] demonstrated that reducing spark advance
can lead up to a 40 percent torque reduction. Poor spark
timing would cause an aggravated torque disturbance during
an AFR shift and therefore demand more intervention
from the torque controller. Better information concerning
spark timing would mitigate torque disturbances to the system
and improve overall system performance. In addition to
spark timing, another likely cause is an improper coordination
of air and fuel to the cylinder. The controller provided
zero steady state error and an acceptable response on the
dynamometer to the torque disturbances. However, vehicle
testing must be completed to ensure these results meet
vehicle drivability standards.
The torque controller may also be implemented to change
desired torque. Again, engine conditions for 25, 47, 58,
and 74 mph were investigated. In this case, desired engine
torque was stepped while operating at λ = 0:7, λ =1:0, and
λ = 1:3. In many conditions, the engine responded to a 20
ft-lb step change in desired torque within 12 to 34 engine cycles"

http://cobweb.ecn.purdue.edu/~ragu/c...rs/IFB103.html

some more info.

"BorgWarner Torque Management Expertise Broadens With New Technologies for Enhanced Traction, Stability, Performance"

AUBURN HILLS, Mich., Sept. 28 -- BorgWarner TorqTransfer Systems has broadened its industry-leading capabilities in torque management with two new technologies that offer sophisticated enhancements to the precision of torque delivery -- providing automakers and drivers with enhanced traction and stability for maximum performance and security as well as improved fuel economy and reduced emissions.
BorgWarner introduced its new Pre-emptive Torque Management(TM) and InterActive Differential Control(TM) torque-transfer systems during the Society of Automotive Engineers All-Wheel Drive Systems, Security and Driver Interaction Symposium taking place this week at the Dana Technology Resource Park in Ottawa Lake, Michigan.

"These two new systems provide our customers with reduced development time, improved reliability, improved fuel economy and reduced emissions," said Cynthia A. Niekamp, BorgWarner TorqTransfer Systems President and General Manager.
"In addition, drivers of vehicles equipped with these systems will experience better vehicle handling, enhanced traction and greater vehicle stability. In building on BorgWarner's proven Torque-on-Demand(R) and InterActive Torque Management(TM) torque-transfer systems, we continue to advance the forefront of supplier innovation in four-wheel and all-wheel drive."
The Pre-emptive Torque Management(TM) system's differentiating feature is its ability to deliver torque before a wheel slips. A precise amount of torque is transferred prior to wheel rotation, through the use of electronic sensors and microcomputer controls also developed by BorgWarner. Managing the power between the front and rear wheels, and eliminating power to the rear wheels when it is not needed, results in better handling, traction and fuel economy.
The system continuously monitors dynamic torque capacity and adjusts capacity as required. It offers improved reliability and durability, as well as lower weight and cost. The system can be mounted anywhere between the output of the transmission and the input of the secondary axle. It is available in a variety of sizes to meet specific vehicle requirements, thus providing very flexible packaging benefits. Additionally, it can limit torque transfer to the power takeoff unit and secondary axle, permitting the use of lighter-weight and lower-cost components.
The InterActive Differential Control(TM) system also uses BorgWarner-developed electronic sensors and controls, in this case to deliver optimal biasing torque across the center differential automatically. When the system senses that the wheels are slipping, it automatically transfers power to the tractive wheels through the center differential. When the slipping stops, biasing to the tractive wheels is reduced or eliminated -- again, enhancing vehicle handling and traction through the management of power between the front and rear wheels.
Both systems deliver the requested amount of torque in response to electronic signals provided by one or more of the vehicle's traction and/or stability control systems. They are both fully interactive with, and work in conjunction with, other vehicle systems including antilock braking systems (ABS), electronic traction control (ETC), electronic stability programs (ESP), and active suspension programs. Both systems are pre-tested, and offer the customer benefits such as improved vehicle integration with no separate electronics to package, as well as reduced wiring harness complexity.
BorgWarner TorqTransfer Systems is a leading independent global designer and producer of transfer cases and systems for four-wheel drive vehicles for the sport-utility and light truck markets. Its systems enhance driver security, reliability and ease of use."

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...28/237780.html

 

I don ' t understand . I thought I was getting better .

 

So, the "torque" is "managed" somewhere between 60 and 330' per the above? Pardon me but this is a new discussion to my experience. If you go slower to 60, the tm gods reward you by improving your time to distance when it is less likely to toast your diff? At least there is some logic in that. Simple question then: sidestep the clutch at 2500 vs sidestep it at 4500. What happens?

 

On drag radials the car will 60' as good if not better at a 2500 launch as a 3500, 4500 or 5000 launch.

I made many passes and was only able to slightly improve my 60' with the drag radials over the run flats.

The harder you try to launch the car with a sticky tire the more the power pulls back.

 

and the sixty ft. times vs et. are not typical. 1/10th improvement on 60 ft. equals 2/10s improvement on et.

 

OK, that would be the logic in tm--slicks, ultra high torque (why I used 4500 rpm ~ max torque) can grenade rear ends--especially if repeatedly done, as wheel slip angle is the safety valve--regardless of running an LS2 or a 400 Ram Air II. I can understand that would be a potential reason for GM to put tm algorithms in--at least the automatics which would also be susceptible to damage. That says GM says the drivetrain can't take the engine's output. The question remains: huh? Why design it that way? TM, if it is reality, is then nothing but a bandaid. And for it to work as some suggest, the ABS sensors have to be involved. Also, with tc on, there would be no other "management," so the algorithm revolves into the tc/active handling code in the ecm. With performance handling on, I would bet there is NO torque management ever intervening, unless you want to call that code tm. If the flat worlders ( ) want to imply tm occurs, in another algorithm, only when all active handling is disabled--a back door safety valve for those who turn all computer controls off, I can buy that. However, no way it is in addition to those algorithms.

 

Well here is a little more evidence. Although to deny TM in modern cars is some serious sticking your head in the sand. Like I said just google it and you can find out all about TM in modern vehicles.

Here is my anecdotal evidence. Both my C5's ran faster 60 foot times and slower qtr mile times.

It is easy to deny the existence of things you can not see. Not sure why people really say TM does not exist though. It is starting to look a little like trolling, but maybe not. I just don't see the point of it.

I do not know this for sure but I don't think our TM operates like a 4x4 TM operation. In a 4x4 sensors at the wheels must measure torque. In a two wheel drive car from what I read it is not necessary to measure torque at the wheel sensors. It can just be managed at sensors on the engine.

Oh and Dennis don't let the grammer ****'s get you down.

 

No I have to disagree. I think the main problem with people understanding this is they confuse ABS, TC, and AH with TM. Not the same. You have no button for TM, it can only be effected with a tuning software.

TM can be completely accomplished by anylizing the fuel air exhaust parameters. A TM operation does not need imput from sensors at the wheels. Now I do not know for sure that is how a C6 TM works but I do know many vehicles TM works this way.

 

google is your friend.

to be honest, i ignore the 'forum' and 'user comments' results (google search results) and try to find 'scientific' articles.

 

wow excuse me for living...

[unsubscribes from thread]

 

Is there any software out there that can turn off the TM?

 

the hptuners software can make some modifications to some settings for some vehicles. the software will make adjustments to a wide variety of vehicles and or combinations but that does not mean that all settings apply to all vehicles.

the help file also states this.

 

EXACTLY. Every single stock manual (and automatic) C6 that I've seen launch at the track on a sticky tire or even launched hard on heated stock ones (and I've seen plenty) has experienced those same exact results, the drivers confirmed it as well.

 

Hey, the forum is not about the correct usage of the english language (I destroy it everyday) it is about cars You want us to discuss the existance of TM but now we need to be grammatically correct........ yea right