How is everyone doing tonight. I am the tech taking ove the corvette job for bulldog. I had check the car over before the cam install and i have found minor issues as far as electrical. For example, a loose ground and a vacuum hose left off. As far as the mechanical aspect of things the car was fine. Just because water was introduced into the engine does not mean new engine. I have replace that damn #7 connecting rod that always seems to be the one that takes the hit ALOT of times when i was a chevy. Only time i have ever replace the engine due to water was a complete failure, guts on floor. I am not trying to drag anyones d*** in the dirt here i am just saying the truth from what i have seen. I know the car was running good, hell i test drove it. Bottem line is owning up. Everyone makes mistakes. No one is perfect but help your customer. Customer service is what makes a business a business. Any shade tree can install a cam or change a spark plug but a business that takes pride in what they do will help and bend over backwards for there customer. In all honesty,i saw the main and rod bearings that is lack of oil. Every main and rod bearing failed and the old cam does not have a bad pattern. Its an 05 it has wear. Im help this kid out and get it fixed right. I like that saying from an earlier post, Good work is rarely cheap and cheap work is rarely good!

 

Regardless who did the cam upgrade, the same result would of occured.. It is time to haul that piece of crap out of there and put a fresh crate engine an be done with it... At this point you will be way ahead $$$ and piece of mind wise... Then try the cam idea when you save up some more $$ at a trusted shop.. You have a couple in your area...

And BTW I really do believe once you do serious modding that you have to be more than a passave owner and know something about what you have done and what to expect in normal operation of the mods..

 

same result huh. complete engine failure. um no sorry. And i have lost count of how many rich bnoy corvette owners i ve talk to that have more money than cents. They dont know there engine from the rearend they just have money to blow. not everyone trolls these forums and learns. they just drive buddy. this was a result of poor customer service and poor work. hell he charged 200 to put his cam in. those bearings were starved. sorry to be the bad news bear. water didnt do installing the heads at the dealership didnt do it. the shop that installed the cam did it. Like i said just stating the truth here

 

First off, yes I'm in Lubbock and have met gectek on one occasion. I have probably met the other guys too, at least the tech working on it now I believe. If gectek has a shop that could take some business my workplace I should be mad huh? Worth mentioning just to show my unaffiliated viewpoint on the matter. Luckily I stay way to busy to not worry about 1-2 lost installs a month.

Ok now on to my post:

Matt was keeping me up to date with this thread, as someone sent us a message asking if I worked on this car. I'm glad it wasn't, as stated above... it seems this engine would have killed itself no matter what was done after the dealership had it, especially if it had prior metal contamination in the oil filter before getting the cam swapped. Lets remember that the engine appeared to be in good condition after the dealership initially "fixed" it, so what did the car have 20-30 miles on it? Hardly enough to show an engine issue. Then it was driven to Lubbock and back - now the engine has about 300 miles since the dealership repair...and is dead.

I'm not sure how the dealership could take 3 weeks to fix the hydrolock issue, which further confirms my viewpoint of dealership tech (lack of) qualification. Granted an insurance company is involved which takes up to 48hrs to inspect the car and approve a repair - but 3 weeks!?? For cylinder head(s) no less? (a 6-7hr job) A piece of plastic was stuck in a valve? Where did it come from, was the air filter in place, or was air and debris bypassing the filter? and how was it not found in an engine health diagnostic on the first day after draining the water out. (compression test, leakdown test)

How can a dealership that leaves grounds loose, sensors unplugged and vacuum lines off be competent enough to do internal engine repairs? I'm somewhat interested in seeing the deck surface of the block to see if an abrasive cleaning disc was utilized to clean the old gasket off. That alone would kill engine bearings in a few days. Dirt falling in the engine when removing the heads would also cause issues. This contamination can stay in the engine during an oil change, and also an engine oil cooler if so optioned.

Oil contaminates can wear the oil pump internally, wear bearings, and stick the pressure regulator valve in the oil pump for lower oil pressure. Which causes further progressive damage.

The thing I read a lot on this thread was a cam bearing being nicked. A nicked camshaft bearing will not cause huge loss in oil pressures and unless the camshaft bearing is physically knocked out of place would not loose 15psi.

The camshaft bearings are very forgiving to minor bumps and scratches, and even aftermarket bearing oil clearances specs for the cam journals range from .002" up to a loose .006". Now if all 5 cam bearings on the loose side of .006" oil clearance does not cause engine damage - can we assume that one small nick (if so) during a cam swap can still cause engine damage? I think and know that is not the case, anyone who says a nicked cam bearing can kill an engine... doesn't know how engines work and is grasping at straws.

Sorry for the long post, these were things I was thinking of while building a handful of LS engines this week and working on a few installs.

Pictures requested:

*non-blurry engine block surface and cylinder heads while we're at it
*valley plate area under intake manifold
*oil pump internals, and location of pressure reg valve (closed/open)
*cut apart oil filter from both parties to compare debris before/after
*nicked cam bearing (if so)

 

^Best post yet.

 

Is your name Daniel? I think I've met you before, see if you can get me those pics I mentioned in my post and I'll help diagnose what failed first, send them to LSx-images @ sbcglobal.net

Thanks,

 

Dont know about taking three weeks huh. You have never been to all american chevy of odessa. They take forever. I have warranty trucks come to me from fleet owners that pay me for the job even though its under warranty because they cant wait 1 week wait times to get it in the door to be looked at it. Man ive dealt with them ****** for a long time. That car had more miles than that. He drove that car damn near nonstop for two weeks after he picked it up. Questions. What would Texas Speed do in this situation. What would SDPC do in this situation. Would you help your customer as much as possible or would you have him sign a waiver clearing you of any wrong doing and hand him his parts in a damn trash bag. Even the tow truck driver said they were *******s. I dont know them dont care to know them they could be the sweetest pair in the bunch. But they should have handled thesituation better

 

I put 2000 miles since the repair was done from Chevy. Miles OUT of Chevy 32001 Miles that where on the car droped off at his shop 34009.......... So it took 2000 miles before the engine gave out?

 

Gotcha on the miles. I read into the timeframe too much, and way underestimated how much someone could drive a C6 in 1-2 weeks. 2000 miles is about 2 years for most of my customers.

I'm not representing TSP with my posts on any forum, but I will answer the questions. This just happened to be the username I could get at the time.

TSP would take reasonable efforts to determine the root cause and if I was to blame I would pay for the labor repair out of my own pocket. If not my fault - the customer would owe for labor up to that point and the repair if he choses to do so. To date I have had to pay for some shock bolts and a customers hotel room for some bolts I did not tighten completely, my one and only fault in 8 years. On this particular car, I would like to think that I was made aware of the previous issues beforehand if they were not obvious and I would have made it a point to look over the car thoroughly before touching anything on it. You can usually tell when someone has worked on a car before.

Not sure what SDPC would do, I don't see them doing a whole lot of install volume. Probably similar to what I would do ^.

Here's the problem: dealership took car apart, gectek took car apart, car breaks after both places have car apart - most people would point the finger to the last person who touched it. But knowing engines as well as I do, I know that is not always the case.
http://motorbooks.com/Store/Product_...roductID=42331

Don't get me wrong, it still sucks and it sucks for both parties involved. Hell for ****s and giggles I'd love to see who did the initial dealership repair. 5 minutes with that guy and I could tell you how competent he was. Just because a GM dealer tech did the repair doesn't make it as good as GM.

BTW my word isn't golden, and even I have been wrong in the past. I'm not defending the cam swap, but would like to know how a simple cam swap killed the rest of the engine? I've nicked cam bearings in our own dyno engines a bunch, and have never seen anything like this. Since I likely work on more LS engines than -anyone- in our area, I think I would have saw a problem long ago if cam swaps were that delicate.

 

I told the shop that the car was worked on before them.

 

Never said it was cam bearings. A million things could have happened. Forgot to put oil in initial startup, whoops shut her down she only ran for a min just add oil. Forgot to tighten pump back down like the shock bolts. Missing or pinched oring. Bad pump itself on install if he went upgraded. I dont care how it broke my only bitch is the way ity was handled. Joseph you handled the situation like a guy that takes pride in your work that why you have the name you do. They completely denied any wrong doing on his part from the get go they made him pay tow bill when there wasnt even a tow truck called. they tried to get him to sign a waiver clearing them of any wrong doing, and the put his main cap rod cap pan and pickup tube in a trash bag and booted his ***. Im talking about treating customers fairly and honestly here. If he is a shade tree in his friends garage yeah ok but he is advertising as a reputable shop. There are plenty of backwood installers here in odessa but there are far to few reputable shops that treat customers fairly.

 

I used to work for a guy that built houses. Here's how the blame game went:

Concrete guy blames the foundation framer

Framer blames the concrete guys.

Plumber blames the framer.

Electrician blames the plumber.

Sheet rock guy blames all the above.

etc...

 

You told us before repair that the engine was replaced. And I did say that I have seen 15psi at idle before. It is not uncommon but I never said normal. The only reason you saw the low oil pressure was because the DIC flashed at you first. Otherwise you never would have noticed.

If I had known the whole ordeal up until the moment we touched it, I never would have done anything to your car.

 

Did I tell you or did David tell you?

 

A happy customer will tell 5 people, a pissed if customer will tell 100. damn that i have worked to hard to have my name rubbed in the dirt. im make my customers happy. Here is how my blame game works. I built a monster 4l60e for a 00 camaro a while back. Man it was a nice trans. Everything internal you can do to one. Well he picks it up. drives it for a week takes it to the track and it fails. ok What did i do wrong was the first questyion i ask. I paid towing lifter her up and found a broken bellhousing WTF. Video from that night shows what happened. Neutral slaps wide open. I could have done nothing to prevent that excpet tell him that is not the way to launch. But i did not fight it. I ordered a brand new bellhousing. i pulled the trans replaced the bellhousing and reinstalled the trans at no cost to him. I could have easily showed him the video and told him to **** off. But i didnt. I have received many a job since then from people he knows and i have made up that loss with the profit from those jobs. CS is very important to me.

 

Mostly off-topic:

Having been a tech for 17+ years, yes I would say most techs lack customer service and that is one reason you don't speak directly to a tech when you go to a dealership - they have service reps that "usually" have that skill. A tech will say "here's ur problem", chuckle a bit, and hand you a broken part. A service rep will say "Sir what happened is a squirrel ate part of your wiring harness and the repair costs are $329.12, it will take 3.5 hours. Would you like your vehicle repaired? You can wait on the repair in our waiting room with complimentary coffee or we can have our shuttle drive you somewhere while you wait."

It should be obvious that it isn't a real 9-5 business when it cost $200? or so to do a cam swap on a C6. As stated, I know they do a few installs of guys that have priced our work beforehand, and I'm sure most of their customers are very happy. And this is not a knock on bkbulldog or gectek, but shops are charging $700-800 for the same install - when you get the "same" thing for $200, the same cushy service is not to be expected. If I charge $800 for something, the customer usually gets $1000 or more worth of work FWIW.

I have seen their installs and read gecteks posts on many other message boards and they are full of information, with his knowledge, I would never consider his installs subpar. Hell, he shares more tech stuff than I even share on the forums. I too used to do work on the side for extra cash. I can understand the issues with the way the car teardown was handled after it broke, no one is happy to work for free. I'm sure they were as sick of the car at that point, as you guys are as sick of seeing it broken.

Disclaimers have their place, but after the fact is probably not the best time for one. Usually there is one signed before any work is accomplished, allowing the work and test driving the vehicle along with other legalese.

Anyhow, shoot me some pics and if you need anything for the buildup let me know.

 

Good luck with the rebuild. Let us know what you find, and how it turns out...

 

I know that I was told through the other tech that it was replaced with a new engine. If you sent that to him in a message, I am sure that I can provide that as well. Your father also told that same tech and the other man who came to pick up the car on the trailer that it was a new engine. He also indicated that the water was much higher than you let on. So one of the stories is not straight from you or your father and one was a complete lie. I am not sure if you told my tech or if someone else did. You sure did not let us know anything before hand and you sure did not tell me anything until after everything had happened.

And you also forgot to mention that you knew the pan was off and everything was left as is, and also that I gave you $100 back of the $200 towing fee I asked for. WHY? You didnt even ask why. You just took it. I gave it back based on principle and respect for your situation. You give me a sob story about how you have to now drop out of college and get a full time job to pay for this (i have the text message saved) and then your father makes sure to cuss me out over the phone before we came to an agreement about how he has enough money to make my life a living hell and mess it up forever. I did not care about that. I am actually out money on this whole ordeal. The fact that I gave you some of what I asked for back should say something to you, but you do not care. Your mind is made up. We also told you what to look for and what to watch out for, THEN I shook your hand and said good luck. Anyone else would have said F* off.

If all it takes is a minor test drive to make sure the car is 100% perfect, then I can sign off on that too. It had quite a few test drives. It ran without a problem. (after the cam sensor issue was fixed and before ftmp). NO ONE can EVER say that an engine runs 100% perfect and there is not a single thing wrong (and be right) just by giving it a test drive once or twice. NO ONE. I do not care if they are certified by chuck norris, ASE, GM, or God.

And also, you DID sign a paper. Your dad even agreed to what it said over the phone. WHY are you STILL not telling the truth? I can post a picture of that too if you need to. I signed it, my tech signed it, you signed it, and the independent shop owner signed it.

As for your "certified mechanic". I have nothing to say to him about anything. He is not you nor your father. He would not answer my call when I tried to get ahold of him twice. I am sure that he knows how to take a car apart as well as I do. And there was never a question as to the bearings being bad. If you saw the pictures and read what I said it needed, then yes, its a no brainer. I would also check the cam bearings. I said that as well. There should be no need for the heads to come off to assess bearing damage, but it appears he is going to glean all he can out of the cost for a rebuild. Maybe (just like the first time) a rebuild is not warranted, more like a full complete new engine.

FYI you can see in one of the pictures where the crank was being thrust forward and starting to wear from the throw on the front main cap.

If the mechanic fixed the minor elec issue, then what was it and why was it not fixed the first time? Did my cam install mess that up as well?

Stop blaming me/the co. and move on. Blame the dealer if you want to point the finger. I am sure the insurance company would be more than pleased to go after them. Unless you and your dad and the ins and the dealer agreed to do the top end rebuild with a flush. Then you can blame all those parties. If so, then you cheaped out the first time, dont be surprised when something like this happens.

 

Then you have nothing to lose by working on this one for free too right? That is what you just said. Just gain some good CS and move on. And they were not shock bolts and we did not forget to tighten them. It was the driver side steering rack bolt and it was tight, just backed off the bolt some. Didnt you have a question as to why we would have taken a shock off for a cam install? Maybe this brings a little of your repair insight into question. He does not remember half of the things that happened or went on. He is not telling you the entire story on what happened at the end either. You want the truth, I have an officer that was present as well to watch it all. He knew the car was disassembled. He also knew I would not touch the car to put anything back on. He signed a paper saying as much. Get the whole story before you start tossing around your interweb machismo.

FYI, from the son you are charging him a grand to pull the engine and find out what is wrong. That is just labor for that. These were his words. Where is that winning CS now? The only reason you are telling him that is because you are certain you can pin this on me, they will file suit, they/you think they will win and they will get the money they paid you back. So that way you can make money on basically a free job. I know the score ok. Do not try to say that you are better than me by telling about some story a long time ago. I gave him back half the tow money, I pulled the pan and found out what was wrong, I went down there and was there until 3 in the morn that night, I spent alot more money than a bell housing and pulling a trans on an f body (which is NO comparison to a vette at all) by doing JUST those things. They told my tech what they would pay for when they went to pick the car up. I was holding them to their word.

This is going to be the only time I talk to you about this. (besides post below)

Man up and pull some badass CS out like you said you do. I did.

Did you also know that he asked me to fix the car since it was already torn down and in the shop up here? AFTER this entire forum ordeal?

 

And one last thing. The tow truck driver was prob about to pull the front bumper off. He wanted to pull the car on the wrong way like it was his first time towning. Pulling a vette on there forward from a steep incline. You should get your FACTS straight. I am not sweet, but I sure am not a pushover either. And you have no room to tell me how to handle any situation because I did charge nothing for the tear down. You are the one seeming to make some quick cash just off of this and the fact that they will prob try to seek legal recourse. I am not the one trying to show off my awesomez CS skillz. Would you have preferred I just throw them in the trunk? Maybe I should have installed them? He was told I would not touch the car anymore. You handle your situation how you want.