The Coyote motor weighs 430lb from what I can see on a quick search, where as an LS motor weighs 390.

As for efficiency, there are stock displacement LS1's that make over 500rwhp on pump gas. Big whoop.

If you do not understand the advantages of OHV V8s, go spend sometime reading up on engine swappers and just how many different applications the small block chevy is used in.

 

I wanna see a valid reference for this figure, what I have is 415-418 lbs. I understand the low cost of simple pushrod motors very well although you apparently think that OHV is superior to OHC because it is cheaper, assuming it really is?
If I were you, I would try to figure out what motivated GM to use DOHC in C4 ZR-1.

Are you saying my C5 was putting out 500 hp somehow? If this is the case, I want my money back for the Z06.

 

The LT5 is extremely expensive to make, and get replacement parts for. Not to mention just how much you have to tear it down to do work on it. Did you know that when someone came in for serious work, GM took the engine out of the car and shipped it back to Merc to get worked on? GM couldn't work on that engine.

It's a great engine, but not practical at all for Corvette. If I were you, I'd try and find out why the Grandsport is worth more than the Zr-1 15 years later.

I said there are stock displacement LS1s that make over 500rwhp. I didn't say your specific LS1 was making 500rwhp. Can you read? At all?

 

OMG, where did GM have to send Northstar motors to get repairs done? Include the link to your 500 rwhp LS1 to see the specifics, you blow too much smoke up ....., hopefully that LS1 is still the same displacement for starters... Most likely the same place where you got that 390 lbs LS3 motor info.

 

Ooooh, now I get it LOL.
You're one of those "if it has pushrods and leaf (not leave by the way) springs then it must be old school/antiquated technology" types.
An overhead cam/4 valve per cylinder nut swinger/fanboy so to speak.
Now it all makes sense LOL.
I thought this board took care of those types LONG ago with the valid explanations behind all of that. This stuff has been discussed, debated and debunked for YEARS now.
Trust me pal, the use of these systems is NOT only 'profit driven'. It's by design. It's by conscious choice.

As you said, GM is VERY familiar with DOHC 32 valve V8s, having ventured into it with both the LT5 and the Northstar. But the more powerful and more efficient LSx architecture just proved itself to be MUCH better and THAT'S why it's used today.
More physically compact (allowing for lower hood lines/better aerodynamics), lighter (less = more speed + better fuel economy) and GOBS of power while still being relatively fuel efficient and maintenance free saving the owner LOTS of money in the long run.

Leaf springs. You think that was done to save money?
Just the opposite, they cost more than coil springs.
High tech, compact and ultra lightweight composite material.
They're used to allow for lower suspension pick up points, improved wheel travel, ride comfort, lower fender lines and better aerodynamics. Better aerodynamics means higher top speeds/stability and also better fuel economy in case you didn't know.
The engineers can put coil springs or even full coil over shocks in the car, there are no business managers/bean counters stopping them. But it wouldn't meet the given criteria/end result so this is the path they've chosen.

A motor doesn't have to be ONLY multi cam/multi valve to be good...and someone who actually believes that "it's gotta be DOHC or it's crap" is akin to someone that also believes that a Gucci handbag can hold/transport a woman's make up and cell phone MUCH BETTER than a Coach handbag can.
It's basic name dropping or label seeking, nothing more.

The proof is in the final product, proven end results don't lie, this stuff WORKS. Have you seen what modern era Corvettes (with their pushrods and leaf springs) have done out on the roads and tracks of the world?
That's no coincidence.

 

Why GM continues to increase the displacement and aftermarket continues to offer coil over conversions is beyond me, the car is so perfect for so many years already, we need body panel alternatives and nothing else. I think this may be the time to ditch that Daytona 955i and pick up a Harley instead. LOL

 

You still havent addressed my simple question. But I got something to say about your statement.

Ford's 4.6 dohc lacked torque. Thats putting it nicely. the 96-98 cobras with 305hp are about as fast as the later 260hp GT's, all because they had a god awful torque curve.

The 99/01 fixed that sorta of, but wasnt nearly enough to compete with F body LS1 cars, despite more rpms, and your super duper hp/liter argument. If it didnt have 4.10 gears, usually they were meh 320hp cars.

The 03/04 Mach 1's fixed the problem. However to do that they had to use the navigator trucks intake cams, slightly modified intake, and better heads. The result however, was a flat hp curve from about 6200-7000 rpms. So the super cool 6800rpm redline suddenly wasnt as important, as shifting at 6800 in 2/3/4 gear you'd actually run slower. So cool. You DOHC engine now makes torque... and made good hp, but the curve was meh. All in the name of making torque, they gave up top end. Their engine probably has the most OHV looking curve of any DOHC engine made.

Then the 5.0 came out. Thanks to variable valve timing, it finally has good curves. However, go watch a 3.31(basic factory gears, 3.55 and 3.73 gears are optional) run down the track. It wont hit the mid 12's others are reporting.

Which shows the two holes in your DOHC or bust theory. DOHC engines usually make great peak, high rpm hp. They usually lack the low end compared to pushrods though even with variable valve timing. So you need to gear them like crazy(figure 3.73 rear, then check out the insane trans ratios it has as well) to get them to run, so now that 5.0 DOHC might eat as much gas as a 6.0 OHV. Ford is smart where Chevy isnt with that. The 26mph highway or whatever the mustang gets, is rated with 3.31 gears. You might be looking at 400rpms difference with 3.73. So kiss that real world 26mpg goodbye.

The other arguement that "GM has to keep increasing the size"... really?!? Here's your wake up call:

EVERYBODY INCREASES THE SIZE OF THEIR ENGINES WHEN THEY DO A REVAMP. EVERYBODY.

Ford went from 4.6 to 5.0. From 5.4 to 5.8 next year. Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche, GM, Dodge, Ford... EVERYBODY MAKES ENGINES BIGGER WITH A REDVAMP. Which, if you've been following, makes this possible 5.5 in the c7 actually quite a huge deal at least to me. NOBODY has shrunk their performance engines in modern times. Yeah some turbo 4's are going to .0006 liter instead of N/A 2.0, but NOBODY has shrunk a performance engine in recent years that I can think of. Thinking better about GM yet?

And just to address your other points. Yes the LS motors weigh less then Ford's. The rough number on their 4.6 aluminum motor was 465lbs, the heaviest lsx number I've seen was 430lbs. The 5.0 is supposedly a little more compact, so maybe they're tied. So what, the ls7 makes 505, the boss makes 444, and yet the 5.0 is still broader, and manages to not weigh less. The weight of the lt5 vs ls6? not even close.

And the LT5 was designed by Lotus, and built by Mer-Cruiser. So yes, it was in fact shipped out if the motor needed real work done to it, or a new one just dropped in if it was cheaper. It wasnt a Chevy motor. The northstar was designed in house however, so can be worked on by guys that are trained in it. What motivated them to use it you ask? Lotus was owned by GM at the time, and their contracts with callaway was soon to be over. They wanted a super vette for the time period, and the technology wasnt there yet for their 350s as they didnt want to overhaul them till the c5(lsx designing started in late 92). Easy answer was ask Lotus for help. And before you shame GM for doing such a thing, cause I know you would, Dodge did the EXACT same thing with a certain bad *** car that, like the vette, retains pushrods and beats the snot out of competitors for far less money. Yes at the time the lt1 was just coming out and made only 300hp because it was in fact, a 1960s engine with fuel injection(i'm oversimplifing it mind you)... while all the fancy DOHC turbo imports made... SURPRISE! about the same. Yet a 95 vette cost less then the supra, 3000gt, rx7, or 300zx. And got same or better mpg. Again, your arguing for what again?

And btw, what is the benefit of coilovers on a corvette? Do you even know?

But i defer you to my last post. You think without mid engine DOHC, the c7 will be meh. Yet the c7 will be an improvement over the c6. But for today, the c6 zr1 doesnt need an improvement. Name any production car that can match its overall stats, and costs within even $50k of it. I already know the answer, however I want to hear yours. No judgement, just asking you to prove the rest of us wrong. "The corvette will fall behind its competition."?!? The zr1, released 4 years ago, is STILL ahead of 99% of its competition for about the next 2 years, and ahead of all of them when factoring price.

And just to top it all off. Look at the estimated specs on the new GT500 motor vs the ls9. The fact that it makes 650 vs 638 is sad actually. That thing should be making about 700 if you look at the sum of its parts. The thing has to have the safest factory tune ever, every time i read about it, it makes no sense.

 

And the Harley thing is 100% unrelated to corvettes despite the connection you were going for. Them being air cooled, and the EPA restrictions are what kills harley. Other then the V-rod the 110 motor has like 9.8 compression or something stupidly low like that. And with EPA restrictions, it has to keep running cleaner, so the cams are meh, and the A/F that is required on bikes sucks. Therefor, it makes no power. Like 120lb ft or something, but only around 90hp if I remember seeing dyno sheets. The V-rod is stupidly safe, and makes decent power, but has a great curve. It was a balance of getting harly-ish torque, but making sport bike power. Again, largely due to it being water cooled. The hyabusa or zx14 if they were air cooled, would be poop motors as well. Cause despite their rpm limits, they still would run weaker cams, and far less compression.

Harley has hit the wall with its oldschool engineering and must change or die, probably within 5 years. Corvette is just starting. Your broad generlization about it being a 50s motor is barely true. However, you are partially correct as it really has no big deal "tech" VS other motors, yet the motor still makes great power and is fuel efficient. Now they are adding direct injection and variable cam timing. This next batch of motors will be just as significant as the lt1 was to the return of HP, and the LS1 was to transforming the Corvette.

I eagerly await your response.

 

When Ford switched from pushrod so called 5.0 to OHC, the displacement went down to 4.6-so much for NOBODY decreasing while revamping. Many other instances of this taking place throughout the industry. What competition is ZR1 behind being the only currently produced domestic high performance two seater? Let us not mention that Rossion again though, LOL that is 800 pounds lighter, costs 30 grand less and is faster while using a tiny DOHC motor. I do not like that one but GTR is faster than ZR1 as well and cheaper to boot. Your references to force fed japs from the 90s are funny as well, look at the resale value of supra TT vs. comparable vette, should give you a clue. I am not a fan of Ford but to its credit, its cars tend to be rated conservatively, with many instances of rated power being found at the rear wheels, in their high performance models.

 

 

Hmm, I've watched Porsche increase their flat 6's displacement numerous times over the years.
Ferrari's "ultra high tech" V8 gets increased from 3.0L to 4.5L and their already huge V12 just got bumped from 6.0L to 6.3L (sort of like the base Corvette did in 2008 ) in order to add power, I wonder why they would do such a silly thing?
Ford Mustang GT OHC, 4.6L to 5.0L and the GT500 will go from 5.4L to 5.8L.

Need I really go on?




Ok, and the aftermarket also offers cams/stroker kits for those OHC/DOHC motors you seem to be so hell bent on and even bigger turbos, intercoolers, fuel systems for all of those "so called" high tech turbocharged cars as well, what's your point?
Different tools for different jobs.




Hey, the Corvette incorporates LOTS of cutting edge/high tech/computer electronic systems, it's far from the 'Model T' type levels that you're over-exaggeratedly making it out to be.
No one is talking about removing the car's fuel injection for a carburetor or taking off it's radials and putting on bias plies here.
As for your Harley versus Triumph reference, you do know that the Harley V-Rod line is quite 'modern tech', right? DOHC 4 valves per cylinder, liquid cooled, 9000rpms etc. No, not quite the 12000rpm or handling capabilities of the average liter sport bike, but it's also not trying to be that either.
And for a full day/weekend trip I'd certainly take the ride comfort of a Harley Davidson Road King over that 955i any day of the week, but that's another/different discussion.

 

Harley is very related, including now shut down Buell. Now, my Triumph is from 2002. 147 hp and 75 ft lb torque from less than one liter. Where is Harley today? Not even close, still peddling the same air cooled turds with one exception that is still not even close to anything imported. Would I buy one? Not even if someone paid me to take it. I am getting to this state with corvette. If you and others disagree, that is fine but hopefully there will be enough people buying corvettes. Seems like Harley is not doing all that great.

 

And so did the power. The 1995 GT 5.0L was faster than the 1996-1998 GT 4.6L.
Having owned three 5.0s and one 4.6, I know this all too well.

 

Im baffled... none of your points were accurate... yet you keep arguing? You quite literally, answered nothing I said with a relavent answer. Nothing lol!

I said revamp on the engines. The 5.0 OHV to 4.6 SOHC was a ground up new motor not a single thing interchangable. Did you know the connecting rods in the new 5.0 are a good deal lighter, but a direct replacement for the 4.6 DOHC connecting rods? Again, because its a revamped 4.6 DOHC. And you said there are many other instances? Go ahead, name 3, hell name one.

The GTR is quicker in a quarter mile... in most peoples hands. However the ZR1 has gone far faster then the GTR has since they have both came out. An hour long test isnt enough to wring out better then a 11.2. And on a course the ZR1 wipes the floor with the GTR, this has been verified EVERY SINGLE TIME. Like I said, overall beats the stats of the ZR1 and costs within $50k and you listed nothing. You listed a kit car. Why not talk about an ls7 GTM then? I meant performance cars, I didnt specify anything really. Yet you still listed nothing. No F cars, no P cars, no L cars. The real answer? The dodge viper is the only thing close. Other then that to match its overall performance your spending well over $200,000 far as I know. Oh wait, a pushrod engine that actually IS stupidly inefficient. 8.4L making 600hp? Pretty sure the guys that set both records with the 2 ACR's arn't worried about their hp/l. More likely the fact that they beat just about every car ever made around the Nurburgring.

The buell comment means nothing. The firebolt and the other top of the line bike made plenty of power. Buell went under strictly from bad managment, thats it. It was winning in professional races right and left if I remember correctly. Some no nothing head honcho just decided to shut them down.

The value of the supra compared to the vette?!? Thats easy. First, a 300zx, rx7, 3000gt are worth hardly more then an lt1 vette currently, which is fine seeing as I said they cost slightly more in the first place. But why do they hold value at all, when the lt1 Z07 was generally a superior overall car, cost less, and has an easier to work on engine? Rarity. Far more lt1 vettes then rx7's. Supra's cost so much more however, because Toyota got the engine just right and made it quite powerful. Every company has those gems that pop up every once in awhile, so dont go saying "well that proves toyota makes better cars too!" I would note however, if you notice all these 1000hp supras, 99% of the time have fully built strokers, run race gas, no longer are bi turbo, etc. So its reputation as the king of hp is GREATLY exaggerated. 500hp with enough boost and 93 octane yup. Not 1000hp on a fully stock motor however as most would have you believe.

Again, Harley and Corvette are in two waaaaaaaaaaaay different boats. EPA restrictions and their lack of tech has all but killed them. If they do not change they will die very soon. Corvette kept updating their motors here and there yet was beating people WITHOUT any real tech, and now they decided "well, lets through everything we have at it." So now, the car was already competitive, yet you think this new model wont be? What comparable $50k competition might it have exactly other then GT500 and ZL1? I'd also like to point out, that despite the fact you think everything about the Corvette is outdated, that only recently Ferrari and Porsche are using the shocks originally started for the corvette line. Intersting... Your trying to make a connection between Corvette and Harley that just isnt there. Harley hasnt done much other the the Vrod motor in years, and will refuse to untill they dont have a choice. Corvette team has moved the trans to the rear, pionered making aluminum engines for all of GM's lineup, designed quite possibly the best suspension available(leaf spring included), and will now completely revamp their engine line-up. Thats not counting the simple tuning of parts after gaining more and more racing experience. Sounds like they've been hard at work to me.

On the other hand, if you look at Harley's racing program, they have 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt DESTROYED every bit of competition. For years. Non stop. Record breaking even. It's probably fair to say they have the most successful drag racing program in modern times. Everything they do is simply the best. But thats not what their street bikes are about which is why they dont benefit. Corvette on the other hand...

If all you car about is hp/l then just buy an S2000(oh wait, even they didnt care about hp/l once they realised a better curve = better engine) or 458 italia and call it a day. If your want a production car that quite literally was a slap in the face to the entire world starting in 2006(zo6, $62k), or more importantly if you care so much about WINNING, then keep the corvette.

 

Just a side note on that as well, let's not overlook that all 4 (300ZX, Supra, RX7, 3000GT) of those Japanese sports cars/sport coupes, though experiencing some varying degree of sales depending on which model year one looks at, ultimately ALL failed here in the U.S. Pulled from the showrooms. Terminated. The Z and RX sort of came back YEARS later but were totally different iterations.

Yet the Corvette survived and still soldiered on, got even better and even experienced some GREAT sales years.

 

I'm brainwashed because I choose to buy a car I like.

 

I said the LT5. Not the Northstar. Nowhere in my posts have I mentioned the Northstar. And when I get out of work later this afternoon I will dig up posts of 500rwhp LS1's on stock 5.7liter displacements.

I'm wasting my time talking to a fool though who has no facts to back his arguments up, yet continues to argue with the entire forum. I should know better than to argue with 12 year olds who educate themselves on car and driver mags...

 

feeding continues...

 

Well, nobody stops you from abandoning this thread, obviously we will continue to disagree and nothing meaningful will happen. You and others are stuck in that pushrod mode and obviously will be cheering those pushrod dinosaurs as long as they will be around, LOL at you and your ignorance of LT5 and Northstar reference. If you were not so stuck in that pushrod mode, you could get a clue that appearance of Northstar right after LT5 ceased to exist was more than coincidence and that are many similarities between these motors. Nevertheless, let the ramblings continue while GM continues to cash in on greatness of pushrod motors and leaf springs, Heck, Morgan still uses wooden frames, why not continue to use pushrod motors and leaf springs

 

Now now, buy any car you like, just get your facts straight first before crapping on others