Front engine future
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 983
Likes: 36
From: Middle Of Kali CA
copy and pasting 12 black rectangles onto a PDF and screen shotting it, is a difficult venture. Almost as tricky as PM'ing mike was, to learn for yoursleves how to save yourselves 40 grand of depreciation for a problem GM still has not fixed on most of your cars.
"that's okay, I would rather make fun of Mike, and call anyone with a lemon Mike too, I'm smart"
"I think anyone who does not think we are geniuses, who also believe they can lemon their car, MUST BE ALL THE SAME PERSON! THERE COULD NEVER BE 2 PEOPLE ON EARTH SIMULTANEOUSLY THIS SMART WHO DON'T RESPECT OUR INTELLIGENCE AFTER WE CALL THEM THE WRONG NAME OVER AND OVER"
"that's okay, I would rather make fun of Mike, and call anyone with a lemon Mike too, I'm smart"
"I think anyone who does not think we are geniuses, who also believe they can lemon their car, MUST BE ALL THE SAME PERSON! THERE COULD NEVER BE 2 PEOPLE ON EARTH SIMULTANEOUSLY THIS SMART WHO DON'T RESPECT OUR INTELLIGENCE AFTER WE CALL THEM THE WRONG NAME OVER AND OVER"
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,285
Likes: 52
From: Salt Lake City, UT
C6 of Year Finalist (appearance mods) 2019
The Corvette has been mid-engined for two (three?) generations already. It doesn't matter if the motor is in front of you or behind you. As long as it's located midships, some distance from the wheels, it's a mid-engine layout. The fact that they're putting the it behind you in the C8 is very obviously because most people don't know that, and because looking like a Ferrari will make the car sell better than ever before. You can't fault GM for making a completely sensible business decision.
As for the car being less appealing to older buyers, that may prove to be true. But it's likely a sacrifice GM is willing to make because the Corvette has started attracting younger buyers over the past 10-15 years. I bought my C6 when I was 20 years old. Still have it, ten years later. And I'll buy a C7 in the next 1-2 years, after the prices have tanked.
As for the car being less appealing to older buyers, that may prove to be true. But it's likely a sacrifice GM is willing to make because the Corvette has started attracting younger buyers over the past 10-15 years. I bought my C6 when I was 20 years old. Still have it, ten years later. And I'll buy a C7 in the next 1-2 years, after the prices have tanked.
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,494
Likes: 703
From: Raleigh, NC
The Corvette has been mid-engined for two (three?) generations already. It doesn't matter if the motor is in front of you or behind you. As long as it's located midships, some distance from the wheels, it's a mid-engine layout. The fact that they're putting the it behind you in the C8 is very obviously because most people don't know that, and because looking like a Ferrari will make the car sell better than ever before. You can't fault GM for making a completely sensible business decision.
As for the car being less appealing to older buyers, that may prove to be true. But it's likely a sacrifice GM is willing to make because the Corvette has started attracting younger buyers over the past 10-15 years. I bought my C6 when I was 20 years old. Still have it, ten years later. And I'll buy a C7 in the next 1-2 years, after the prices have tanked.
As for the car being less appealing to older buyers, that may prove to be true. But it's likely a sacrifice GM is willing to make because the Corvette has started attracting younger buyers over the past 10-15 years. I bought my C6 when I was 20 years old. Still have it, ten years later. And I'll buy a C7 in the next 1-2 years, after the prices have tanked.
FWIW my replica is a front mid engine design but the engine set back gives a 46/54 distribution so it can be done but my legs are alongside of the block, the transmission is on my hip & the drive shaft is 12" long.
Don't think Chevy could have pushed the engine any further back without a full redesign of the car which has not taken place over the last few generations. As long as they had to do a full redesign why not go with a modern Mid Rear Engine location?
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; Jun 11, 2019 at 08:31 AM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,088
Likes: 1,829
From: Metro Detroit Michigan
The Corvette has been mid-engined for two (three?) generations already. It doesn't matter if the motor is in front of you or behind you. As long as it's located midships, some distance from the wheels, it's a mid-engine layout. The fact that they're putting the it behind you in the C8 is very obviously because most people don't know that,....
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,666
Likes: 1,778
From: North Texas
Thats kinda the point. PCM made the comment/challenge about posting evidence of the demand for a ME from Corvette enthusiasts. As rightly pointed out, that document doesn’t exist in public. I’ve personally never heard but one or two Corvette owners lament that the car wasn’t a ME. About the same number of Porsche owners have said they would consider a Corvette if it was ME (at least at PCA track events).
When someone says “people have been asking for it for X years”, they are really referring to a minority of people, specifically Corvette people. Hardly something that would move the needle for GM. GM wouldn’t change the formula for a vehicle that has and continues to sell well. The drop in sales of the C7 really is statistically no worse than what happened to previous models near the end of their run, possibly made worse due to the ME car leaking so early and so long.
So I’m curious as to the reasoning/justification and why now. We will never really know, GM will just point to the performance improvements that are sure to be seen. But part of me wonders if there is a little bit of gambling going on here too.
When someone says “people have been asking for it for X years”, they are really referring to a minority of people, specifically Corvette people. Hardly something that would move the needle for GM. GM wouldn’t change the formula for a vehicle that has and continues to sell well. The drop in sales of the C7 really is statistically no worse than what happened to previous models near the end of their run, possibly made worse due to the ME car leaking so early and so long.
So I’m curious as to the reasoning/justification and why now. We will never really know, GM will just point to the performance improvements that are sure to be seen. But part of me wonders if there is a little bit of gambling going on here too.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 22,598
Likes: 14,555
They've wanted to take the car ME for a long time... why now? Because they've pushed the C5/6/7 platform for 22 years and maxed it out. A refreshed C8 on the same perimter frame, SLA suspension, monoleaf springs, etc. is just more of the same... it's time for a change. There hasn't been a major revision of the car since the 1997 C5 vs. the 1996 C4. The C5/6/7 is continuous improvement on the same concept.
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 25,583
Likes: 16,942
It is a bit of gamble, and all but the most exclusive, high-dollar sports cars could be a nearly extinct species within the next 1-2 decades. Thus, I think for GM it was now or never. Despite both the C6 and C7 attracting some new and younger buyers, the average age of a Corvette owner has risen from 54 to 61 over the last 10 years (according to Forbes). I have no doubts that the "favorability ratings" of ME sports cars across all age demographics are much higher than for FE Corvettes, with the possible exception of the senior citizen multiple Corvette owner demographic..
Last edited by Foosh; Jun 11, 2019 at 01:06 PM. Reason: typo
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Safety Car
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 4,980
Likes: 3,826
From: Bainbridge Island WA
Thats kinda the point. PCM made the comment/challenge about posting evidence of the demand for a ME from Corvette enthusiasts. As rightly pointed out, that document doesn’t exist in public. I’ve personally never heard but one or two Corvette owners lament that the car wasn’t a ME. About the same number of Porsche owners have said they would consider a Corvette if it was ME (at least at PCA track events).
Wait. Wait. Wait.
If YOU make a claim, the onus is upon YOU to prove it. The fact is THERE IS NO MARKETING STUDY for either position that is accessible to the general public. That DOES NOT bolster the "We need an FE" argument at all. It basically cancels out the "marketing study" argument. There isn't one for either side. Is that grounds for a victory lap?
PCMIII's argument amounts to this: Because I have purchased several cars, GM should pay attention to me and if they don't, they'll go bankrupt. This is a ludicrous position. PCMIII believes he is representative of the marketplace. He has nothing to back that up. No marketing study, no particular expertise, no track record, no nothing. It's just his individual opinion as a consumer. There's nothing wrong with an opinion, but the fallacy here is believing your opinion is held be everyone else.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 22,598
Likes: 14,555
It is a bit of gamble, and all but the most exclusive, high-dollar sports cars could be a nearly extinct species within the next 1-2 decades. Thus, I think for GM it was now or never. Despite both the C6 and C7 attracting some new and younger buyers, the average age of a Corvette owner has risen from 54 to 61 over the last 10 years (according to Forbes). I have no doubts that the "favorability ratings" of ME sports cars across all age demographics are much higher than for FE Corvettes, with the possible exception of the senior citizen multiple Corvette owner demographic..
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 2,096
Likes: 1,024
From: AA/Metro Detroit
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 22,598
Likes: 14,555
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,666
Likes: 1,778
From: North Texas
That's changing history. It was PCMIII that claimed initially THERE WOULD BE an FE built alongside the ME, no question. Remember? He castigated anyone who disagreed wit him. Now he has shifted positions and is saying an FE SHOULD BE built alongside the ME or else GM will go bankrupt. Now he wants "proof" of a marketing study that shows anyone at all even wants an ME.
Now, the thing is, you did kinda make a claim and that's what he called you out on to back up.
I'm not convinced that you have the pulse of the average Corvette enthusiast. You have not done any valid marketing studies here. You just have an opinion. Don't mistake your opinion for an in-depth understanding of the Corvette marketplace. You don't speak for all of us. Actually, you don't speak for any of us.
You did open the door on the whole marketing study discussion. He just walked through it.
Now, I agree (and have said multiple times), that data is not and will likely never be public. But when the question has been asked, all we see is comments about "people have been wanting a ME" (with nothing to prove it) or "they have been wanting to build it" (which represents an even smaller percentage of people, the Corvette team), etc. That doesn't prove anything either. Kinda a double standard.
I guess I just see it as more of the same bickering back and forth that the forum is sadly becoming more and more known for.
As far as the gamble, just reading the forum (again, a small percentage of the buying public), it could backfire or be a huge success. For me, if it checks one or two more checkboxes I'm all in on the car and it will get me off the fence about buying another Chevy product (after a few horror stories).
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 25,583
Likes: 16,942
I had the same impression when I first joined in 2004. I don't think much, if anything, has changed. I've been active on a half-dozen car forums during that period, and this one has always been a bit rougher and more active than most. However, because of anonymity, they all look somewhat similar to this place. The "polite" ones usually have much less traffic
Last edited by Foosh; Jun 11, 2019 at 03:10 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,049
Likes: 1,613
From: Holly Springs NC
St. Jude Donor '16-'17,'22,'24
It is a bit of gamble, and all but the most exclusive, high-dollar sports cars could be a nearly extinct species within the next 1-2 decades. Thus, I think for GM it was now or never. Despite both the C6 and C7 attracting some new and younger buyers, the average age of a Corvette owner has risen from 54 to 61 over the last 10 years (according to Forbes). I have no doubts that the "favorability ratings" of ME sports cars across all age demographics are much higher than for FE Corvettes, with the possible exception of the senior citizen multiple Corvette owner demographic..
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,703
Likes: 984
From: Annandale VA
How about 65 years of Corvette history where well over a million FE cars have been sold making Corvette the longest running production car in history? How many ME Corvettes have been sold? Zero, as in nada.
Prospective Corvette purchasers have several FE choices: Supra, Mustang GT500, BMWs, etc. If Corvette is foolish enough to abandon the FE market of 30K vehicles annually to its rivals, then it deserves what will happen. I seriously doubt Mary B. wants to kill Corvette, but it would not be the first time it has been on the chopping block.
Last edited by PCMIII; Jun 11, 2019 at 05:13 PM.
Drifting
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,972
Likes: 1,098
From: Texas Hill Country Texas
Nothing to back it up? Really?
How about 65 years of Corvette history where well over a million FE cars have been sold making Corvette the longest running production car in history? How many ME Corvettes have been sold? Zero, as in nada.
Prospective Corvette purchasers have several FE choices: Supra, Mustang GT500, BMWs, etc. If Corvette is foolish enough to abandon the FE market of 30K vehicles annually to its rivals, then it deserves what will happen. I seriously doubt Mary B. wants to kill Corvette, but it would not be the first time it has been on the chopping block.
How about 65 years of Corvette history where well over a million FE cars have been sold making Corvette the longest running production car in history? How many ME Corvettes have been sold? Zero, as in nada.
Prospective Corvette purchasers have several FE choices: Supra, Mustang GT500, BMWs, etc. If Corvette is foolish enough to abandon the FE market of 30K vehicles annually to its rivals, then it deserves what will happen. I seriously doubt Mary B. wants to kill Corvette, but it would not be the first time it has been on the chopping block.
Personally, I would never cross shop a BMW coupe, Mustang, Camaro, Supra, etc as I don’t consider any of those to be remotely offering of what I’m looking for.
You have cut-n-pasted the same exact comments dozens of times on this and other threads...we get it, your opinion has been registered! The good news for you is they made almost 200K C7s so you’ll be flush with FE C7s for the rest of your life.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 41,732
Likes: 1,718
From: Springfield MO
Nothing to back it up? Really?
How about 65 years of Corvette history where well over a million FE cars have been sold making Corvette the longest running production car in history? How many ME Corvettes have been sold? Zero, as in nada.
Prospective Corvette purchasers have several FE choices: Supra, Mustang GT500, BMWs, etc. If Corvette is foolish enough to abandon the FE market of 30K vehicles annually to its rivals, then it deserves what will happen. I seriously doubt Mary B. wants to kill Corvette, but it would not be the first time it has been on the chopping block.
How about 65 years of Corvette history where well over a million FE cars have been sold making Corvette the longest running production car in history? How many ME Corvettes have been sold? Zero, as in nada.
Prospective Corvette purchasers have several FE choices: Supra, Mustang GT500, BMWs, etc. If Corvette is foolish enough to abandon the FE market of 30K vehicles annually to its rivals, then it deserves what will happen. I seriously doubt Mary B. wants to kill Corvette, but it would not be the first time it has been on the chopping block.
Pro
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 704
Likes: 407
From: St. Louis area
Approaching 300 posts on this topic, well, those and whatever off topic rants a couple of our favorite narcissistic friends have added, and we are still bickering about the future of the FE Corvette. July 18 can’t get here soon enough to simply put the debate, and the FE, to rest. :-)
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 41,732
Likes: 1,718
From: Springfield MO
Actually, the average new Corvette buyer's age went from 54 to 61 from 2004 to 2013, the years of the C6. When the C7 came out, that number has fluctuated but the last age reading that I could find now brings it down slightly to 59. The C7 did a great job of arresting the trend of the C6 years and slightly reversing it. If that trend had continued, the average age today would be something like 67.