C5 Final Design Update
1/4 mile/AutoX
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 11,443
Likes: 2,189
From: Buffalo Texas
I don't agree with patting everyone on the back just because it feels good. Constructive criticism is a great thing and helps people more than they know. Sometimes people just like to talk trash or don't want to think outside of the box. Those people are the most satisfying to prove wrong when you accomplish your goal and make something work. I don't know about you, but when someone tells me my idea won't work, it only pushes me harder to find a way to make it work.
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,932
Likes: 1,511
From: Here, There and Everywhere
Now you're an aerodynamicist and an engineer...I see. All these things you've become since your sudden join date and explosion of posts. Interesting.
So, we're designing the C7 to excel at bonneville now, is that the goal? We're comparing supercars, from an era when top speed was a defining factor, to a 2014 Corvette, of which top speed really has no bearing whatsoever.
Your posts are going further and further from reality, the more you talk. What is your point at this stage even? Are you going to build something, or is it "lets redraw Corvettes" and spout engineering concepts that we've never once applied in the real world. I don't even understand the function of this thread any more.
It seems to me you came along and inherited your dads Corvette, likely a car you couldn't afford yourself, and suddenly your a self proclaimed expert here on how to improve every generation with a swipe of your mouse. It's absurd really.
And I have news for you, most of the function of extending the rear of the car has to do with several elements. One of which is getting the airfoil as far back as legally possible, and the other is that many mid engine transaxles run the differential closer to the engine, for better mass distribution, etc. Therefore, the gearsets extend beyond the axle centerline and thus extend the rear the car. You're also pointing out mid-engine cars, which are much more a focus of polar moment, in order to get the car to rotate. You've effectively worsened the polar moment for the C7 Corvette, but you knew that already I guess.
So, we're designing the C7 to excel at bonneville now, is that the goal? We're comparing supercars, from an era when top speed was a defining factor, to a 2014 Corvette, of which top speed really has no bearing whatsoever.
Your posts are going further and further from reality, the more you talk. What is your point at this stage even? Are you going to build something, or is it "lets redraw Corvettes" and spout engineering concepts that we've never once applied in the real world. I don't even understand the function of this thread any more.
It seems to me you came along and inherited your dads Corvette, likely a car you couldn't afford yourself, and suddenly your a self proclaimed expert here on how to improve every generation with a swipe of your mouse. It's absurd really.
And I have news for you, most of the function of extending the rear of the car has to do with several elements. One of which is getting the airfoil as far back as legally possible, and the other is that many mid engine transaxles run the differential closer to the engine, for better mass distribution, etc. Therefore, the gearsets extend beyond the axle centerline and thus extend the rear the car. You're also pointing out mid-engine cars, which are much more a focus of polar moment, in order to get the car to rotate. You've effectively worsened the polar moment for the C7 Corvette, but you knew that already I guess.
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,932
Likes: 1,511
From: Here, There and Everywhere
Thanks again for all the incredible knowledge. I have been patient with your replies and tried to be a good sport every time you had to prove your superiority. I told you, you weren't an a-hole when you referred to yourself as being one. I even tried to include you and contract your services for the custom tonneau bar. I am not shocked I didn't hear a reply from you on that. No one is knocking your knowledge about cars but to me what you are doing here with these nasty replies is really uncalled for. When I post pictures,I never really asked for you to tell me why they would or wouldn't work. It's this simple, If you don't like the thread, separate yourself from it. You have taken drawings and tried to apply all this expertise in critiquing them. They are drawings. Nothing more, nothing less. My own car is being built off some of these concepts. Have a good day, I'm done replying to you. Troll my threads and rip my drawings all you want. I simply don't care enough about your opinions to keep fighting with you about them.
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,260
Likes: 429
From: Houston TX
I don't think he is being bashed for his passion, rather the attitude in some of the replies he has given. From my perspective, he likes the positive attention a lot but doesn't deal well with the negative attention or people actually trying to help him. He is also coming off like he knows everything, rather he means to or not. Improving on a design, at least to your personal taste, is one thing, but suggesting the original designers didn't know what they were doing is quite another.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,135
Likes: 258
Constructive criticism is the root of good design.
I hold a degree in Indistrial Design and specialized in automotive design. I've also been though the in's and out and it's pretty easy to pick apart the dreamers from the doers.
The OP acts like a freshman whose noobing it up in Photoshop like I stated before. The ego can be a great and terrible thing at the same time. Things you are generating are fun to look at for some, and nice to explore on for laughs; but it's not good design. The language is either wrong, dated, or impossible; budget aside.
Thanks for being some sort of rescue aid worker/fireman etc etc but don't think it allows you to always be right. I wouldn't expect a fireman to understand design as much as I'd expect a designer to know how to put a fire out or control a burn.
Enthusiasm only gets you so far. That's why I've mocked this. I can design beautiful cars all day but it doesn't mean crap if they don't work, can't be done etc etc. Right now I feel like I'm in an into to Trans class in 1993. Good intention, awful execution.
I hold a degree in Indistrial Design and specialized in automotive design. I've also been though the in's and out and it's pretty easy to pick apart the dreamers from the doers.
The OP acts like a freshman whose noobing it up in Photoshop like I stated before. The ego can be a great and terrible thing at the same time. Things you are generating are fun to look at for some, and nice to explore on for laughs; but it's not good design. The language is either wrong, dated, or impossible; budget aside.
Thanks for being some sort of rescue aid worker/fireman etc etc but don't think it allows you to always be right. I wouldn't expect a fireman to understand design as much as I'd expect a designer to know how to put a fire out or control a burn.
Enthusiasm only gets you so far. That's why I've mocked this. I can design beautiful cars all day but it doesn't mean crap if they don't work, can't be done etc etc. Right now I feel like I'm in an into to Trans class in 1993. Good intention, awful execution.
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,932
Likes: 1,511
From: Here, There and Everywhere
I don't think he is being bashed for his passion, rather the attitude in some of the replies he has given. From my perspective, he likes the positive attention a lot but doesn't deal well with the negative attention or people actually trying to help him. He is also coming off like he knows everything, rather he means to or not. Improving on a design, at least to your personal taste, is one thing, but suggesting the original designers didn't know what they were doing is quite another.
Well said!
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,937
Likes: 348
From: My interests are mobile
Eric, it's one thing to come in with some an enthusiasm, and label it as a "fun project". Maybe call in a few folks, say "hey, let's all pow wow about how we could redesign the C5"...that's fun. The problem is, you're rolling up in here like the voice of change, when change isn't even necessitated. There is inherently, NOTHING wrong, with the C5 Corvette.
Like any mass production vehicle, it has quirks and long term, people have discovered a few small issues, but overall the car is bulletproof, it allowed GM to WIN at 24hrs of Lemans, something it'd never done before as a factory and it saved GM from bankruptcy. On all levels, C5 launched a new era for Gm with the LS motor and a design architecture that changed the game on some levels. It was blindingly successful almost any way you cut it.
I just don't understand what suddenly launched this mission to reinvent something which really needs no reinvention. There are TONS of resources out there to build a car from scratch, hell even use the C5 suspension and drivetrain while you're at it. I can promise you though, you have an easier shot paying a guide to help you climb mount everest though, then to out-do GM at their own game....it ain't happenin. The car biz has eaten far richer and far more enthusiastic folks than you.
Your post above though...doing the impossible and what not...I don't understand the necessity for such a mission. Do you feel there is a market for what you're selling here apparently?
Like any mass production vehicle, it has quirks and long term, people have discovered a few small issues, but overall the car is bulletproof, it allowed GM to WIN at 24hrs of Lemans, something it'd never done before as a factory and it saved GM from bankruptcy. On all levels, C5 launched a new era for Gm with the LS motor and a design architecture that changed the game on some levels. It was blindingly successful almost any way you cut it.
I just don't understand what suddenly launched this mission to reinvent something which really needs no reinvention. There are TONS of resources out there to build a car from scratch, hell even use the C5 suspension and drivetrain while you're at it. I can promise you though, you have an easier shot paying a guide to help you climb mount everest though, then to out-do GM at their own game....it ain't happenin. The car biz has eaten far richer and far more enthusiastic folks than you.
Your post above though...doing the impossible and what not...I don't understand the necessity for such a mission. Do you feel there is a market for what you're selling here apparently?
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Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,135
Likes: 258
Hey let me shoot down the idea of stock ride height and bringing the body to the ground "to control ride and performance"
That fender gap is called jounce. It's the allowed range of travel in a working suspension. It's what allows that nice cushy ride. When you lessen it; the suspension must change to compensate. Your 6" downward body kit would remove itself via pavement grinding the first time you actually tried to use that thing as it keels like a ship in the turns with the wonderful compromised design. Even a Z06 rolls around a bunch.
Your table sucks and you will starve alone at it.
That fender gap is called jounce. It's the allowed range of travel in a working suspension. It's what allows that nice cushy ride. When you lessen it; the suspension must change to compensate. Your 6" downward body kit would remove itself via pavement grinding the first time you actually tried to use that thing as it keels like a ship in the turns with the wonderful compromised design. Even a Z06 rolls around a bunch.
Your table sucks and you will starve alone at it.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 224
Likes: 33
Hey let me shoot down the idea of stock ride height and bringing the body to the ground "to control ride and performance"
That fender gap is called jounce. It's the allowed range of travel in a working suspension. It's what allows that nice cushy ride. When you lessen it; the suspension must change to compensate. Your 6" downward body kit would remove itself via pavement grinding the first time you actually tried to use that thing as it keels like a ship in the turns with the wonderful compromised design. Even a Z06 rolls around a bunch.
Your table sucks and you will starve alone at it.
That fender gap is called jounce. It's the allowed range of travel in a working suspension. It's what allows that nice cushy ride. When you lessen it; the suspension must change to compensate. Your 6" downward body kit would remove itself via pavement grinding the first time you actually tried to use that thing as it keels like a ship in the turns with the wonderful compromised design. Even a Z06 rolls around a bunch.
Your table sucks and you will starve alone at it.
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,928
Likes: 93
From: Boulder City NV
I re-read this whole thread, and while amusing it really doesn't address your claims.. I don't get what you're actually trying to do. You started out by claiming to be building molds, practically signing contracts etc..sorry man I don't get it and won't comment anymore..
..this thread reminds me of what we used to say in the car biz..
"ya can't sell pu$$y with pictures"
good luck
..this thread reminds me of what we used to say in the car biz..
"ya can't sell pu$$y with pictures"
good luck
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 224
Likes: 33
My 2 cents, do you expect your child to prosper and grow with all negative comments ???? I have always said a pat on the back goes a hell of a lot further than a kick in the rear !!! All the great Car Designers started somewhere, and it's their passion that gives us some of the great cars we now have !!!! Yes they did get more stuff thrown in the trash than ended up as a car, and also had their critics !!!! I do understand the need for negative comments it's all part of it, but not thrashing someones effort !!! Eric, I love your imagination and desire do not stop 
I needed this. I won't stop. In fact I'm taking it further
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,260
Likes: 429
From: Houston TX
Whenever I read "re-body" I can't help but think of all the Ferrari replica cars done on a Fiero chassis
In all seriousness though, when is your project starting? Should be easy to remove the body panels initially so you can start kicking it up. Can't wait to see your progress thread.
In all seriousness though, when is your project starting? Should be easy to remove the body panels initially so you can start kicking it up. Can't wait to see your progress thread.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,937
Likes: 348
From: My interests are mobile
What you're proposing Eric...you'd have 100k in the end with this project...for, say the photo above. If you have this friend who says he'll "do it on the side", I promise you, this project will never see completion. At 40+ years old, you refuse to take advice when I've spent over half of your lifespan building cars from the lowest to the highest level, shy of an large scale manufacturer.
What is the mission..first and foremost here? If you are proposing a business to any investor, any anyone, you have to have the "elevator pitch"...the two to four sentences that states very clearly, what you're doing, how and how much, then why. Beyond that, there has to be a recognition of market space, a necessity, some feedback or market analysis that says the product will sell, etc.
On the flip side, if you want to do the one-man-on-a-mission project, then it'd take someone who either stands to gain publicity for their work, or someone who believes in your product to back you.
The pic above will essentially require a tube chassis and/or monocoque to be built, or a HIGHLY modified C5 chassis. The windows additional to the door windows go right through the main B hoop of the chassis, though I assume you're planning on keeping the vert. Not to mention, you ever make a custom piece of DOT glass? I have...dig deep in your pocket there.
For what you'll spend getting this done, you could buy a Factory Five GTM or SL-C and go full custom, while allowing the drivetrain/sub structure to be "outsourced" essentially. You can make a FF GTM go-kart worthy for 35k, then spend 30k on the body. At 65k all-in, you MIGHT have a chance at full recovery, maybe even 70k at Barret Jackson (if you catch the late night drunk bidders)...been there, done that.
What is the mission..first and foremost here? If you are proposing a business to any investor, any anyone, you have to have the "elevator pitch"...the two to four sentences that states very clearly, what you're doing, how and how much, then why. Beyond that, there has to be a recognition of market space, a necessity, some feedback or market analysis that says the product will sell, etc.
On the flip side, if you want to do the one-man-on-a-mission project, then it'd take someone who either stands to gain publicity for their work, or someone who believes in your product to back you.
The pic above will essentially require a tube chassis and/or monocoque to be built, or a HIGHLY modified C5 chassis. The windows additional to the door windows go right through the main B hoop of the chassis, though I assume you're planning on keeping the vert. Not to mention, you ever make a custom piece of DOT glass? I have...dig deep in your pocket there.
For what you'll spend getting this done, you could buy a Factory Five GTM or SL-C and go full custom, while allowing the drivetrain/sub structure to be "outsourced" essentially. You can make a FF GTM go-kart worthy for 35k, then spend 30k on the body. At 65k all-in, you MIGHT have a chance at full recovery, maybe even 70k at Barret Jackson (if you catch the late night drunk bidders)...been there, done that.
Last edited by RC000E; May 3, 2016 at 11:59 AM.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 224
Likes: 33
Off topic
One of the reasons I draw and redesign cars is because I feel that car makers do not listen to what their customers truly want. I have long been into Camaros and now Corvettes. Camaro purests were practically screaming for the new Camaro to look like a 68. Instead Chevy went and made a car based on the 69 while knowing full well that the 68 Camaro is the car that is wanted by more people than any other model year. I just don't understand what they are thinking. I was waiting in line to buy a 2010 Camaro until I actually seen it in person. This car had missed the mark, not by a ton, but it missed the mark. The front end is awkward looking, the rear quarters and squareness were all wrong. In my opinion anyway. If Chevy would have taken a 68 body and put it on their chassis, they would have sold 10 times as many Camaros and you wouldn't see the used market flooded with them.
Take Dodge for instance, They take a sporty 2 door car like the Stratus, aimed at young people. Make it available in light blue and a few of the basic colors, accept one.......Yellow
They then make their manly full sized truck available in?......Yellow
If they had made the Stratus available in yellow, they would have sold a boat load more of them.
This is the thinking of Manufacturers.
This is exactly why I draw.
Look for a complete depiction of my design of the 2010-2015 Camaro soon. This pic is nowhere close to being finished. I'm currently working on the front end
The 2016 is even worse. Now it looks like a Ford Torino. These are my opinions , like them or hate them.
But this much is true. If Chevy makes the 2010 look like a 68 then that would have spelled success. It's what the Camaro crowd was begging for. If you are going to go Retro, why not take your most popular and best looking design? Imagine if Ford used the 79 King Cobra as the model for their retro mustang in 2005. Granted the 69 Camaro is still a cool car, but the 68 is what put Camaro on the map.
Take Dodge for instance, They take a sporty 2 door car like the Stratus, aimed at young people. Make it available in light blue and a few of the basic colors, accept one.......Yellow
They then make their manly full sized truck available in?......Yellow
If they had made the Stratus available in yellow, they would have sold a boat load more of them.
This is the thinking of Manufacturers.
This is exactly why I draw.
Look for a complete depiction of my design of the 2010-2015 Camaro soon. This pic is nowhere close to being finished. I'm currently working on the front end
The 2016 is even worse. Now it looks like a Ford Torino. These are my opinions , like them or hate them.
But this much is true. If Chevy makes the 2010 look like a 68 then that would have spelled success. It's what the Camaro crowd was begging for. If you are going to go Retro, why not take your most popular and best looking design? Imagine if Ford used the 79 King Cobra as the model for their retro mustang in 2005. Granted the 69 Camaro is still a cool car, but the 68 is what put Camaro on the map.
Last edited by Eric02Vert; May 3, 2016 at 12:58 PM.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 224
Likes: 33
Whenever I read "re-body" I can't help but think of all the Ferrari replica cars done on a Fiero chassis
In all seriousness though, when is your project starting? Should be easy to remove the body panels initially so you can start kicking it up. Can't wait to see your progress thread.
In all seriousness though, when is your project starting? Should be easy to remove the body panels initially so you can start kicking it up. Can't wait to see your progress thread.
I'm not starting on my car until this winter. Gonna drive it one more summer before the madness begins.
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,260
Likes: 429
From: Houston TX
Who would want a yellow stratus? Or a stratus in general?
2010+ Camaro sales don't look weak to me. How many more do you think they would have sold if they copied the 68? I'm assuming those thoughts originated on a forum somewhere. Keep in mind that an average car enthusiast forum represents an extremely small subset of actual buyers.
2010+ Camaro sales don't look weak to me. How many more do you think they would have sold if they copied the 68? I'm assuming those thoughts originated on a forum somewhere. Keep in mind that an average car enthusiast forum represents an extremely small subset of actual buyers.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 224
Likes: 33
Who would want a yellow stratus? Or a stratus in general?
2010+ Camaro sales don't look weak to me. How many more do you think they would have sold if they copied the 68? I'm assuming those thoughts originated on a forum somewhere. Keep in mind that an average car enthusiast forum represents an extremely small subset of actual buyers.
2010+ Camaro sales don't look weak to me. How many more do you think they would have sold if they copied the 68? I'm assuming those thoughts originated on a forum somewhere. Keep in mind that an average car enthusiast forum represents an extremely small subset of actual buyers.