[Z06] Took GM to court over dropped valve, and....
06-27-2011, 05:53 PM
#241
Le Mans Master
Pithy, thorough summary! Good work.
A couple of thoughts. In reading these types of threads in the past regarding tracking, there appears to be a need to define the difference, if possible, between the two extremes of tracking a car: all out tracking by racing other vehicles or, racing against the clock to beat your own previous time, compared with; tracking your car in the sense of either learning to accelerate, drive and brake your car in a safe area without typical traffic, and/or, tracking your car without competition to complete laps in an effective manner. One idea may be that tracking a car under the second of the above descriptions should be covered by a warranty, but perhaps not under the first set of circumstances. This would be a worthy goal that may appeal to GM, while keeping their customers satisfied.
I must also say that GM's efforts to produce a stellar track car like the Z06 does create a myriad of confusion of sorts with respect to the warranty. Considering new Ford Mustangs and other brands of performance cars typically have only a 3-year power-train warranty, I would hate to see Corvette customers in the future lose that very generous current warranty.
A couple of thoughts. In reading these types of threads in the past regarding tracking, there appears to be a need to define the difference, if possible, between the two extremes of tracking a car: all out tracking by racing other vehicles or, racing against the clock to beat your own previous time, compared with; tracking your car in the sense of either learning to accelerate, drive and brake your car in a safe area without typical traffic, and/or, tracking your car without competition to complete laps in an effective manner. One idea may be that tracking a car under the second of the above descriptions should be covered by a warranty, but perhaps not under the first set of circumstances. This would be a worthy goal that may appeal to GM, while keeping their customers satisfied.
I must also say that GM's efforts to produce a stellar track car like the Z06 does create a myriad of confusion of sorts with respect to the warranty. Considering new Ford Mustangs and other brands of performance cars typically have only a 3-year power-train warranty, I would hate to see Corvette customers in the future lose that very generous current warranty.
06-27-2011, 05:56 PM
#242
Le Mans Master
≤≥
What I think I remember is, if you remove all past detrimental valve train incidents that ocurred during or because of heavy tracking, and all of those that were due to one or more batches of defective springs in late 2006 — early 2007, then:
The number of negative valve train incidents are very few, at least of those reported on this forum. Within those reported, it's impossible to discern who, if anyone, on a cold crisp morning would fire-up their Z06, and without a warm-up, would rev the #$%@ out of it, etc.
So, I am for now at least, less pessimistic perhaps than the prior poster expressed he was. But then, only a fool never changes their mind.
What I think I remember is, if you remove all past detrimental valve train incidents that ocurred during or because of heavy tracking, and all of those that were due to one or more batches of defective springs in late 2006 — early 2007, then:
The number of negative valve train incidents are very few, at least of those reported on this forum. Within those reported, it's impossible to discern who, if anyone, on a cold crisp morning would fire-up their Z06, and without a warm-up, would rev the #$%@ out of it, etc.
So, I am for now at least, less pessimistic perhaps than the prior poster expressed he was. But then, only a fool never changes their mind.
My point is, there are other cars out there that don't have issues like this--a vast majority of the 500+bhp cars out there do NOT have this issue with engines going poof.
GM needs to fix the failure point. Track-use or not, they put a dry-sump in the car so it could be driven in venues other than Sunset Blvd. The rest of the car needs to be up to the task as well.
06-27-2011, 05:57 PM
#243
Acct suspended by request 21 Sept 2011
06-27-2011, 06:00 PM
#244
Le Mans Master
06-27-2011, 06:01 PM
#245
Pro
Find me ONE dropped valve on a Viper, GT-R, or GT500 that was not on a highly modified vehicle. Just one. I've searched--there isn't (that I could find). In fact, I only found 1 or 2 blown GT500 engines total, even as many people are modding them with 200% more boost. You will find it on Ferrari, though. They have had some issues.
My point is, there are other cars out there that don't have issues like this--a vast majority of the 500+bhp cars out there do NOT have this issue with engines going poof.
GM needs to fix the failure point. Track-use or not, they put a dry-sump in the car so it could be driven in venues other than Sunset Blvd. The rest of the car needs to be up to the task as well.
My point is, there are other cars out there that don't have issues like this--a vast majority of the 500+bhp cars out there do NOT have this issue with engines going poof.
GM needs to fix the failure point. Track-use or not, they put a dry-sump in the car so it could be driven in venues other than Sunset Blvd. The rest of the car needs to be up to the task as well.
06-27-2011, 06:11 PM
#246
Le Mans Master
06-27-2011, 06:31 PM
#247
Acct suspended by request 21 Sept 2011
2. Even though I don't disagree with you, I don't know how to make GM or any other company dance, other than with a handgun, and that would be illegal, and I have no need or desire to meet Bubba.
3. If you have a plan to make GM dance, then, speaking only for myself, I'm all ears, as Ross Perot once proclaimed.
4. I suspect, but do not know for sure, that others feel similarly, but no one has produced factual data (except a few) nor devised a plan.
Without knowing precisely, or very closely, exactly what the failure percentage rate was/is, and what quantity that converts to, we are all relegated to guessing, and comparing the reports in our forum, with forums of other performance cars of differing brands.
The moment you sir, or anyone else has a vision or dream to form, organize, orchestrate and score a wining dance tune for GM, please let us all know. Cheers.
06-27-2011, 06:41 PM
#248
I should have known.I was surprised to see above where a person quoted you acknowledging excessive valve guide wear in LS7 and LS3 engines. I'm having a little problem resolving the 400 hour durability test with the excessive valve guide wear problems. Were the valve guides not part of the teardown inspection? If they were and it passed, then maybe we're just looking at a supplier issue as somebody said earlier. I know the LT5 engine in the '91 ZR-1 had a supplier issue with the cams causing seized engines at the factory and it was quickly resolved. I'm just an observer at this point but my daughter bought a 2011 GS four months ago so I'm an interested observer. I'd like to eventually hear GM give a reason and a fix but based on prior personal experiences with GM, I don't hold out much hope in that regard. In the meantime, I'm concerned about the info presented in this thread by the OP and others.
PS We appreciate all the info you bring to the Corvette Forum but I wouldn't ask you to jeopardize your position on this one...I'm just talking out loud above, no response needed.
06-27-2011, 06:54 PM
#249
When such a test is performed, is water temperature constant? I suspect those dyno cells have that ability, where as the car has to rely on airflow and the radiator. Or maybe some effort is made to mimic the heat disapaiting capacity of the car's cooling system at some speed and ambient temp? Also, I would like to pose the same questions for the oil. Thanks.
Edit, question was aimed more toward Jason but I felt it more appropriate to quote you (GS) given the content.
Edit, question was aimed more toward Jason but I felt it more appropriate to quote you (GS) given the content.
You're aim is correct, hopefully Jason can give you the facts.
06-27-2011, 07:29 PM
#250
Jason tell us more about the tests, Im beyond interested! Id like to hear everything you know...that isn't confidential or violates any relationship you might have with GM....
06-27-2011, 07:48 PM
#251
Le Mans Master
As hard as any out there??? Really???
I have seen one of your videos. The speed you were driving is what I would call track touring speed. Nothing wrong with that, lots of people drive like that at the track. 12 sets of tires in 140,000 miles is averaging 12,000 miles a set. The fast guys on the tracks are using them up way way way faster than that.
You mentioned the only thing you ever replaced on your Z was a sensor. So, I guess you haven't cracked your first set of front rotors yet. I assume your dust seals on your brake caliper pistons are intact also. You know why your clock in your bomb hasn't gone off yet??? It's not hung up. It's because you haven't turn it on yet.
Why don't you post some pics of your spark plugs. I miss them.
Qicksilver likes to see photos when someone claims they broke a motor. I like to see videos with a timer running in the background when someone claims he drives as hard as any out there. How about posting one up running at Laguna Seca.
I have seen one of your videos. The speed you were driving is what I would call track touring speed. Nothing wrong with that, lots of people drive like that at the track. 12 sets of tires in 140,000 miles is averaging 12,000 miles a set. The fast guys on the tracks are using them up way way way faster than that.
You mentioned the only thing you ever replaced on your Z was a sensor. So, I guess you haven't cracked your first set of front rotors yet. I assume your dust seals on your brake caliper pistons are intact also. You know why your clock in your bomb hasn't gone off yet??? It's not hung up. It's because you haven't turn it on yet.
Why don't you post some pics of your spark plugs. I miss them.
Qicksilver likes to see photos when someone claims they broke a motor. I like to see videos with a timer running in the background when someone claims he drives as hard as any out there. How about posting one up running at Laguna Seca.
06-27-2011, 09:10 PM
#252
Le Mans Master
06-27-2011, 09:19 PM
#253
Racer
After you purchased your Z06, BSSN, you rationalized your decision with the following: "I will pick something apart, analyze it to death, and lambaste the hell out of it until I have been proven wrong. Then I will love it to death. That is what happened here. I scrutinized very carefully where my money was going while playing devil's advocate. I could not prove the car had any real issue worth keeping anyone away--so I bought it and couldn't be happier. I have a 7/70 bumper to bumper warranty and a 5/100 power train warranty as well, and an awesome dealership to boot. No worries here!"
What's happened to end the romance?
As an aside, I googled "Viper engine failures" and "GT500 engine failures." The results were, well, a bit different from your findings.
What's happened to end the romance?
As an aside, I googled "Viper engine failures" and "GT500 engine failures." The results were, well, a bit different from your findings.
06-27-2011, 09:35 PM
#254
After you purchased your Z06, BSSN, you rationalized your decision with the following: "I will pick something apart, analyze it to death, and lambaste the hell out of it until I have been proven wrong. Then I will love it to death. That is what happened here. I scrutinized very carefully where my money was going while playing devil's advocate. I could not prove the car had any real issue worth keeping anyone away--so I bought it and couldn't be happier. I have a 7/70 bumper to bumper warranty and a 5/100 power train warranty as well, and an awesome dealership to boot. No worries here!"
What's happened to end the romance?
As an aside, I googled "Viper engine failures" and "GT500 engine failures." The results were, well, a bit different from your findings.
What's happened to end the romance?
As an aside, I googled "Viper engine failures" and "GT500 engine failures." The results were, well, a bit different from your findings.
06-27-2011, 09:58 PM
#255
So WHAT is the best modifications to the head to make sure this cant happen? I plan on removing heads to mill them. Replacing the valves guides with bronze guides, an installing factory valves seems OK if they are still in spec. Thermal barrier? Are you meaning baked on ceramic coating to the valve face? Should the combustion chamber be thermal barrier coated as well? Replace rocker arms with roller tips. Lubrication recommendations please with said mods. I would rather spend some extra cash for insurance and a little hp gain than total a motor. I would sleep better too 
06-27-2011, 10:09 PM
#256
Instructor
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Exactly what I'm looking to do. Just avoid the whole problem and spend a bit of money replacing the factory parts with superior aftermarket items.
And TBC while its all apart, just like what you've looked at yourself.
And TBC while its all apart, just like what you've looked at yourself.
So WHAT is the best modifications to the head to make sure this cant happen? I plan on removing heads to mill them. Replacing the valves guides with bronze guides, an installing factory valves seems OK if they are still in spec. Thermal barrier? Are you meaning baked on ceramic coating to the valve face? Should the combustion chamber be thermal barrier coated as well? Replace rocker arms with roller tips. Lubrication recommendations please with said mods. I would rather spend some extra cash for insurance and a little hp gain than total a motor. I would sleep better too
06-27-2011, 10:25 PM
#257
Le Mans Master
Ironically, that will void the warranty. Catch 22.
06-27-2011, 10:41 PM
#258
Instructor
Member Since: Jun 2011
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Yea it's a Catch22 for sure, but resigned myself its either that, or I buy something else completely.
I figure best way for me to go, is get a 2009 that's a few months shy of its GM warranty expiring, have it thoroughly checked to see what can be replaced under warranty, and then when it expires, do everything else with a reputable shop such as Lingenfelter who will at least standby their work.
That way I've maxed out whats possible with GM, fix anything else before it grenades and GM don't do anything about it anyway, and end up with what I want.
I figure best way for me to go, is get a 2009 that's a few months shy of its GM warranty expiring, have it thoroughly checked to see what can be replaced under warranty, and then when it expires, do everything else with a reputable shop such as Lingenfelter who will at least standby their work.
That way I've maxed out whats possible with GM, fix anything else before it grenades and GM don't do anything about it anyway, and end up with what I want.
06-27-2011, 10:43 PM
#259
As for all the doom and gloom I for one have heard it all before when the LS1 came out back in '97.Same talk about bad design because a bunch of people were bending pushrods.Well that didn't stop me from buying my 2K Z28 and modding it over time.I raced it at the track and by far didn't baby it.Just kept it maintained and sold it back in January with over 176,000 miles on it!Car ran perfect!!
I plan on my Z06 giving me the same durability with just a lot more fun along the way!
06-28-2011, 12:04 AM
#260
Le Mans Master
1. I don't disagree with you. I am a paying customer like you. I have two vettes now, and have had several others over my lifetime.
2. Even though I don't disagree with you, I don't know how to make GM or any other company dance, other than with a handgun, and that would be illegal, and I have no need or desire to meet Bubba.
3. If you have a plan to make GM dance, then, speaking only for myself, I'm all ears, as Ross Perot once proclaimed.
4. I suspect, but do not know for sure, that others feel similarly, but no one has produced factual data (except a few) nor devised a plan.
Without knowing precisely, or very closely, exactly what the failure percentage rate was/is, and what quantity that converts to, we are all relegated to guessing, and comparing the reports in our forum, with forums of other performance cars of differing brands.
The moment you sir, or anyone else has a vision or dream to form, organize, orchestrate and score a wining dance tune for GM, please let us all know. Cheers.
2. Even though I don't disagree with you, I don't know how to make GM or any other company dance, other than with a handgun, and that would be illegal, and I have no need or desire to meet Bubba.
3. If you have a plan to make GM dance, then, speaking only for myself, I'm all ears, as Ross Perot once proclaimed.
4. I suspect, but do not know for sure, that others feel similarly, but no one has produced factual data (except a few) nor devised a plan.
Without knowing precisely, or very closely, exactly what the failure percentage rate was/is, and what quantity that converts to, we are all relegated to guessing, and comparing the reports in our forum, with forums of other performance cars of differing brands.
The moment you sir, or anyone else has a vision or dream to form, organize, orchestrate and score a wining dance tune for GM, please let us all know. Cheers.