Well, based on my experiences working on American made cars and German made cars, I can wholeheartedly say that German cars are superior in design and build quality compared to American cars. Maybe they are harder to disassemble, but that does not mean they are not better designed or better made...

 

C8 and owning a classic mid-engine European car - wish I could have kept my 87 Turbo Esprit,
Great new school/old school combination

 

Well, there are an awful lot of mechanics on YouTube that are easy to find who would disagree with you. Here’s a list of all the wonderful trouble free experiences with 911’s.Porsche 991.1 GT3 engine issues per Road & Track, in a story about a guy who just had his FOURTH engine blow:

Story:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a4...ails-on-track/

This poor fellow just had his fourth GT3 engine blow. Video of fourth engine dying:




Problems with the 991.1 GT3’s 3.8-liter engine were apparent right from the start. Shortly after the release of the car, Porsche issued a recall for all GT3 models in March 2014. That notice came as a result of loosened screw joints on the connecting rods. The issue ultimately caused two cars to suffer engine fires. Porsche replaced the engine in all 785 GT3s built up until that point, and adjusted the design to prevent further issues. Unfortunately, that wasn’t the last time Porsche recalled the car for engine issues. Just a year later, 12 more GT3 received entirely new engines after a valvetrain issue related to finger followers was discovered. Porsche then revealed an extended warranty offer for all 991.1 GT3 owners, which was set to last 10 years or 120,000 miles.





Porsche IMS bearing failures:

The intermediate shaft (IMS) bearing in Porsche 911 and Boxster models from 1997 to 2005 has a high failure rate. The bearing's design and construction can lead to premature failure, which can cause catastrophic engine failure.



The only early warning sign of IMS bearing failure is the presence of metal shavings in the oil or oil filter. Other signs include:

• Knocking or grinding sounds from the motor
• Oil leaks
• Metallic shards in the oil filter

IMS bearing failure can happen at any time. Some bearings have failed after only 3,000 miles, while others have lasted for 200,000 miles or more. Failure can be unpredictable and can be due to a combination of causes.



A failed IMS bearing can lead to catastrophic engine damage and costly repairs, making it essential to be aware of the issue and take necessary precautions.



When the IMS bearing fails, it results in a loss of camshaft timing that can cause severe damage to the engine, including bent valves and debris.





718 GT4 engine recall:

Recall date

2021-03-23

Recall no.

21V200000

Porsche Cars North America, Inc. (Porsche) is recalling certain 2021 Porsche Cayman GT4, Cayman GTS 4.0, 718 Spyder, and Boxster GTS 4.0 vehicles. The engine connecting rods may crack and loosen.

Recall consequence

A loose connection while driving may cause engine damage, a stall, or an oil leak, increasing the risk of a crash or fire.

Recall action

Porsche will notify owners, and dealers will replace the connecting rods or, as necessary, the engine, free of charge. Owner notification letters were mailed May 21, 2021. Owners may contact Porsche customer service at 1-800-767-7243. Porsche's number for this recall is AMA4.



Bore scoring issues: due to a design issue, 1999 through 2008 911s, Boxster‘s, and Caymans are all at risk of bore scoring, which can result in catastrophic engine failure if not caught and fixed when it occurs:



Porsche cylinder bore scoring occurs in engines with Lokasil and Alusil engine blocks when there is a breakdown of the Aluminum-Silicon (Al-Si) cylinder system. When the required iron-clad piston coating fails or there are insufficient exposed silicon particles on the face of the aluminum cylinder bore to support oil film formation, there will be accelerated wear on the pistons, rings, and the cylinder walls. As the pistons and rings move up and down the cylinder, wear debris will be dragged through the bore, causing cylinder bore scoring.



Certain models are more susceptible than others to Porsche cylinder bore scoring. Porsche 911 bore scoring in 3.6 and 3.8 liter M96.03, M96.05, and M97.01 engines and Porsche Cayman bore scoring in 3.4 M97.21 engines are most common; below are all the models that can experience this issue:

• Porsche 996 bore scoring
• Porsche 997 bore scoring
• Porsche 911 bore scoring
• Porsche 987 bore scoring
• Cayman bore scoring
• Boxster bore scoring (3.4 M97.22 engine only

Bore scoring can have extremely negative impacts on your car's performance and engine longevity. As the scoring worsens, the cylinders will lose their ring seal, and harmful contaminants will enter your oil as it bypasses the piston rings. Those contaminants can then be spread throughout to all the lubricated components in your Porsche's engine, eventually leading to catastrophic damage in the worst case scenario.



718 transmission recall:

In 2021 Porsche recalled 4,934 cars with faulty transmission and suspension that can cause drivers to lose control. This increases the risk of a crash and injuries.

The recall includes the following models:

• 2013 – 2015 Porsche Boxster
• 2013 – 2014 Porsche Boxster S
• 2015 Porsche Boxster GTS
• 2014 – 2015 Porsche Cayman
• 2014 – 2015 Porsche Cayman S
• 2015 Porsche Cayman GTS

This was the result of a manufacturing issue. Strontium is a material which is added to aluminum to make it stronger. Here, too much of it was used in the manufacturing procsee and weakened the axle carrier, which could crack or break, causing a loss of control and an ac

 

Sure. I never said the German manufacturers were perfect. Every manufacturer has their issues. But, do you think this is unique to Porsche. I bet you could find as many or more recalls for American made cars. Regardless, German cars are held in higher regard because of their design, engineering, and manufacturing. Of course you do pay a premium for this.

The 911 has the highest customer satisfaction rating in the sports car segment. The Corvette is second!

 

After I saw the design on the Z4 roadster where the electric lift motor for the convertible top hydraulics was placed in a PLASTIC BUCKET that is used for the DRAIN around the rear window and had a small rubber flapper grommet added to the drain, I knew that I would never have a high opinion of BMW engineering ever again.
Why? Because this is VERY OBVIOUSLY a part that was designed to FAIL and rack up costly repairs for consumers. You are going to put an UNSEALED electrical motor in a bucket that collects water and has a small little slit drain that can easily get clogged causing the bucket to fill with water and then causing the motor to be submersed and corrode?
https://repairpal.com/stop-top-hydra...mp-housing-155
https://www.bimmerfest.com/threads/2...at-30k.563311/
https://zroadster.org/threads/z4-roo...to-boot.19256/

Superior German engineering, pffff

 

Hi DerStig, how are you doing? Anyway, the Corvette is the highest rated sports car, according to JD power, and according to consumer reports to 911 has an average reliability rating. Also, all of the flaws I mentioned before over the past few generations of 9/11, and all can lead to catastrophic engine and/or vehicle failures. So, of course, you’re gonna soft pedal that, being a Porsche fan who’s supposedly interested in buying a Corvette, while constantly bashing them and American car quality in general. Yeah, right…

I know very well about German cars, because I have a Mercedes parked in my garage right now, and I had three AMGs which I Purchased brand new (CLK55, followed by a CLS55, followed by a CL63), an Audi S4 prior to that, I’ve also bought my wife one BMW, brand new, which was such a POS that we will never, and have never bought another, and three other Mercedes of her own. What I don’t like is people like you coming in here acting like we’re “settling” for Chevys. I just spent $175,000 outright cash for my Z06 which would’ve bought me any Porsche 911 I cared to get except for a GT3 or Turbo S. So please: don’t come in here, and try to lecture me about the economics of automobiles, or their reliability, or their build quality when I had a CLK 55 throw a rod on me and other issues with the others, far less minor, but Lexus they are not. Conversely, the one, Lexus we did own never, ever, broke in any way and their customer service spanked the crap out of any of the German manufacturers whose cars we owned.

Quality wise I’ve read up on Porsche quite thoroughly, which is one reason you will note, I have never purchased, and never will purchase one of them. I have a lot of friends who own them and it’s a mixed bag, some of this of been trouble free, and others have been total POS cars. Plus, I don’t like their styling, which hasn’t changed much for 40 years and hardly at all in the past, 20 and is boring to me, and the interiors are about as exciting as a slice of Melba toast.

And I find it quite amusing, that you’re trying to tell people here, presumably, with a straight face, that, after the litany of blown engines on GT3s (far more than have been documented on Corvettes), board scoring, recalls of entire runs with engines being replaced, that these are “superiorly engineered cars“. By what measure?? If they are built with defects that caused transmission and engine failures to the point where they need repeated recalls? What kind of engineering is that??

 

Webasto designed the Z4 mechanism. The same company that designed the C8 HTC mechanism.

Again, you guys can find all the exceptions you want. The U.S. companies make mistakes too….

 

 

Look at the more comprehensive APEAL study:

https://www.jdpower.com/business/pre...ut-apeal-study

The 911 was the highest ranking individual model in the entire study.

 

I was referring to initial quality, not owner satisfaction. You will note that Range Rover, one of the lowest brands in reliability, tied Porsche in the study you cited, along with Jaguar, another brand with crap reliability….so this is not a reliability survey.

This one is, though:

 

So if you can only have one of these 2 cars, the C8 Corvette or the Porsche 911 as an everyday driving commute car, which one is better?

 

I wouldn’t use a sports car as an every day car for commuting, and I don’t. My Z06 is a weekender, as the Stingray was before it.

Between those two, though, I would take the Stingray. It’s quieter, has a better ride, more amenities, lower ownership and insurance costs, and better performance unless you get a GTS which is 2X the price, and then you could just switch over to the Z06. 🙂

 

Having owned MANY german cars over a 25 year span, I think think the germans do some things really well but also make some very questionable engineering choices. For examples of questionable engineering, many water pump impellers & housings made out of plastic ( I know it's to save weight but they are almost guaranteed to fail prematurely ).
Also, plastic elbows for radiators (both water and oil) with insufficient bracing so that the vibrations will eventually crack them.
High pressure fuel pumps with o-rings that do not tolerate ethanol in gasoline and leak prematurely. Fuel Injectors than could be stuck open and flood the engine causing hydrolock.
Vacuum lines made of brittle plastic that slowly accumulate hairline fractures thus causing all kinds of problems.
Ask me how I know these things .
For the good stuff now, zero rust on any of my german cars although they are driven in the North east with salt and what not year round for more than 10 years each.

 

@undecided1965 , excellent, salient, and very true points. In my experience owning a German car out of warranty is a rather risky endeavor, and the further out they get the riskier it gets. I would always buy a good extended warranty a month before the manufacturer warranty ran out, keep the car until a month before that ran out, and trade it in, the exception being the Audi and BMW due to crappy reliability which led to their sale while still under it.

And I agree: who thinks it’s a good idea to use an alternator mounting bracket as a water hose? And this is just one example.

 

Great minds think alike and you have excellent taste!

 

I just sold our 2005 911 Carrera that we bought in 2006. The car was trouble free except for a broken shifter cable. All we had to do was regular maintenance. I have lots of friends in the Golden Gate Region of PCA and most of them have smilier stories to mine. Yes, there are a few people that have had problems. I also have friends that on the BMW side that have had owned there cars for years and years, are out of warranty, and have little to no problems. This idea that German cars, in general, are risky to own out of warranty is crazy.

I would never own a hybrid or fully electric vehicle out of warranty though...regardless of manufacturer.

 

All it takes is one look at the year-by-year issues charts in any of these vehicles that Consumer Reports maintains and gets not through anecdotal examples like you’re reporting, but through actual surveys of actual owners, let alone the actual reports and recalls listed above that you’re completely totally ignoring, as though there never was any bore scoring or blown engine issues or connecting rod issues that can lead to catastrophic engine failure, transmission case etc recalls, but there are none so deaf as those who will not listen.

Kind of puzzled as to why you would sell a perfect, never going to break down in any way Porsche for a poorly built American car (in your opinion…). But this wouldn’t be the first time I’ve seen somebody coming to into a forum saying that they’re selling their Porsche to get a Corvette blah blah blah, and then they never seem to get one, but they do seem to hang around and bash the quality of Corvettes and American cars in general.

 

You are too funny. Why would such a terrible car have the highest owner satisfaction rating amongst all vehicles?? If the problems you have listed were widespread, that would not happen.

Look, you need to stop inferring what was not implied. I am not bashing any cars. I have not said that American cars are poorly made or that they are not quality cars. I have certainly not bashed any car and most certainly not the Corvette. All I have said is that the engineering and build quality of German cars is generally better than American cars. I never said that German cars do not have problems nor did I say they would never break down.

I sold a great car and have on order what I consider to be an even better car for what my wife and I desire. For what I am willing to spend and for what I want, the Corvette cannot be beat by any car in the world...German, Italian, or Japanese! That's why I am buying one. Now, if I could get a 911 GT3 for the same money as the Stingray, I would probably be getting the Porsche. But, that Porsche costs 2.5 times what the Corvette does. I say "probably" because the Corvette does a lot of things better than the Porsche.

How can you call this bashing the Corvette???:

"The Corvette is a fantastic sports car. It is unrivaled when you factor in how much it costs. It is aesthetically stunning (I even like the rear end) and the interior is fantastic. The engineering behind it is top notch and it is built on GM’s best assembly line. Dollar for dollar Porsche can’t touch it. I am buying a C8 Stingray instead of a Porsche because it is such a great car at such a great price."

 

I’ve had experiences with two brands of German cars: Audi and Mercedes Benz. Both of them had fantastic build quality as far as the interior design and the looks of the exterior.

Audi: I bought a brand new 2006 A6 with the V8 in it. It was the last year they put a V8 in the A6. That car’s AWD system was outstanding. I rarely found a curve where I could get the tires barking at me when driven responsibly but spirited. It was glued to the road. The interior was flawless. BUT - I got a lemon. It stayed in the shop so much that my Service Advisor and I were on a first name basis. He would even get me the same loaner if it was available. I loved that car but after the warranty ran out it just wasn’t cost effective to keep it.

MB: I bought a Certified 2014 MB E350 AMG Cabriolet in 2018 after I sold my C7. My wife had back issues and we needed a road trip car. We loved it. I never had any issues with the car but the regular maintenance was outrageous. I sold it after about 16 months to buy a C6 with the LS3 in it so I could mod the engine. MB’s depreciate much faster than other cars so I sold it when the market went nuts.

I know that we are off topic here but I’ve had two different ownership experiences with German made cars. I’ve only had one of the five Corvettes I’ve owned - the C6 - give me problems and those issues had nothing to do with the mods.

 

My newest vehicle is a 2014 Mazda 3. It has never had software bugs, despite the fact that it has the tech package and super capacitor. My wife's vehicle is a Lexus hybrid. Again, never a problem.
Consistently throughout the years, Toyota/Lexus and Mazda have ranked at or near the top of manufacturers rankings for most to least overall reliability. GM is always among the lower half.