Not tight, the nut bottomed out against the shoulder of the shaft before getting anywhere near tight.

I considered adding washers to see if the spindle draws up onto the shaft correctly, but I'm waiting for a couple reasons.
1. If it is not the correct joint, then I'd prolly ruin the boot with a pickle fork breaking it back apart.
2. I've never installed offset tubulars, so, I'm wondering if there's something special I need to do with them? So far I can't find anything new online.
3. If washers are acceptable, what kind of material do they need to be?

I sent a email to vpandb sales. Hopefully they will get back with an answer Monday. These a arms were WAY overpriced, so they should at least be Correct.

 

I did not receive a response from vbandp sales today. I guess its no surprise. I never did get a warm and fuzzy feeling inside when dealing with them. I had already said I won't be buying any more parts from them due to the terrible communication about parts on back order. I understand not stocking rare parts due to the economy, but the least they could do is let a customer know that said parts could be a long lead time. I had to keep sending emails asking when, and they always said "We expect the parts this (any day of the week), and will send you a email when parts have shipped" This was after I had waited patiently nearly five weeks for a reply from them. Well, I don't have another five weeks to wait now. I'm just gonna buy a new set of Moog ball joints from advance auto and be done with it. At nearly $80 apiece, it was a large portion of the amount I paid for the new a arms from vbandp to begin with. Lesson learned for me. Maybe this helps someone else too.

 

I suspect the long ball joint is deliberate, though if you're unsure then I'd definitely want confirmation from vb&p. It will effectively extend the spindle, angling the upper arm more to increase camber gain in bump. Pretty sure from memory that my Global West uppers had extended ball joints there too.

 

Yes, this is my biggest worry, I don't know what the offset a arms role in this is. However,,, the upper spindle is not currently even "set". Meaning if I released the coil spring tension, the spindle could be pulled off by hand. I just can't see how this could be correct. Maybe the lower is at fault? I only replaced the upper a arms, maybe if the lowers matched the uppers?????

 

Sorry, I just re-read the posts, I was assuming that the nut had tightened and the spindle was tight on the ball joint. If the nut is tight and the spindle is still loose on the ball joint then you definitely have an issue!

 

Quick update, still haven't heard from vbandp. Found some moogs from advance auto that were said to be original replacements. Stopped by this afternoon and wow, they were the exact dimensions as what vbandp sent with the a arms, except a more complicated install. I should have taken a pic, but i didn't. They were two piece, with a metal cover going under the a arm before the grease boot.

Just looking at pics online, TRW sells one that looks close to the original, and Driveworks (?) has one that looks really close. I never heard of driveworks before, but the price scares me. moogs were $78 ea. trw is $70 ea. dw is $18 ea.
Fresh out of college in about 1990, I worked for TRW for a year, there QC then was outstanding, at least for the computer boards made where I worked. So I'd try them first.
I don't know who the manufacturer is on the joints supplied with the new a arms, 680 is stamped on the top, which is consistent with what others on this site have said were Moog, but there seems to be a question about copy cat versions maybe. Could Moog maybe have just listed the part numbers wrong? Seems unlikely, but I'm gonna shoot them an email just to see.

It dawned on me that the PO could have changed the spindles, which could explain why the ball joint doesn't fit, but the old a arms still have the riveted original ball joints in them, and they have definitely had a few miles put on them.

 

Still have not heard back from vette brakes, or moog emails. I guess it's not worth their time.

I tried a little experiment today. I relieved the pressure from the spring, and lowered the castle nut about a 1/4". The spindle had seated on the shaft to not fall off under its own weight, so I ran the castle nut back up hand tight, and reapplied 100% of the spring force on it. The castle nut was still loose by hand, so the spindle was seated enough to hold spring pressure.
Next I tried a dry run on the other side. I removed the grease boot to save damage, and installed the spindle to the upper with 60 ft/lbs. Again I felt the castle nut bottom out against the shaft. I then took off the castle nut, and added a washer, and retourqued to 60. This time, I hit the tourque mark, and still had threads left to center the hole for the cotter pin. The following pics tell the tale I think.








Don't know why some pics copy fuzzy, but this one is of the pass. side. measured from the bottom of the spindle to end of ball joint shaft. 9/16". This is the side that the nut ran out of threads before getting to proper torque.

Here's a better pic of same.

 

This is the dry run side. Still measures 9/16" to the end thread, but you can see part of the shoulder is now pulled below the spindle.
I could't find my steal rule, so a tape measure is the best measurement I could get. The washer added just a tiny bit of room to make the torque "feel right".
I then removed the washer, and retorqued the castle nut to 60. Again I felt it bottom out on the shoulder of the shaft. The smallest feeler gauge I have is .0015" or .038mm. It will not fit between the nut and the bottom of the spindle. So the difference is incredibly small. In the end, I'm gonna leave the grade 8 washers in place. At first I was worried about adding a wear point into the system, but I talked to several mechanics, and they all agreed that there would not be any wear issues here because the ball joint rotates with the spindle, I hadn't thought of that.
To recap. I checked every ball joint I could find that was a direct replacement. The only two I couldn't get my hands on were TRW, and XRF. All the rest were of exact dimensions, some of them just installed different, and looked different. The shafts were all the same. I found many others on this and other forums, who had similar complaints when replacing theirs, but the threads are all open ended, so I don't know how they finally came out. Are these the correct ball joints? I think they are, but somehow the machining process has left the threads cut too short. Are they acceptable as is? I certainly don't know, how important is that tiny bit of extra seating?
Anyway, at least I'm concluding this particular problem for myself. Hopefully this can help someone else avoid two weeks of research, and headache.

 

Interesting! I think the washer will be fine.

 

Apart from the ball joint investigation, it's just been too dang hot here to work in the garage. The temp dropped to about 106 today, and with the swamp cooler, its bearable in the garage again, so I finished the drivers side suspension.






Because I never did find a spring compreser that would fit, and compress enough, I used the 5/8" allthread method. The all thread rod I used was standard grade 5 rod, and hardware.

 

that's looking so nice now, the threaded rod idea works well too ,I used some 1/2 inch stuff I had in my steel bits box and it worked fine , I just oiled the thread and the few washers underneath the nut to help it turn easier.


thanks for posting about your saga with the MOOG joints , I'm getting closer to ordering some now .


EDIT; I just checked and all 5 bottom moog joint/sellers I have saved on my ebay page have the K6035,s same as yours. might do some more searching

 

To seat the upper part of the spring, I compressed the spring till it was near its normal position, and popped it into position with an open handed smack. On the passenger side, I compressed it too far to begin with, and used a pry bar to pop it over. It was much easier the second time. If it don't wanna move over, just relieve a little pressure, and smack it again.




The 5/8" rod worked well. I used square washers in conjunction with regular round ones. I also planned on using rod couplings instead of nuts, but somehow, I used a regular nut on the bottom the first time. The threads did show a small amount of stretch after compressing the spring, and then I could no longer thread a coupling up the rod for the second use. But it worked out pretty well. I just left the original regular nut where it was on the rod, and only used the top coupling to compress the spring the second go around. I think that had I remembered to use the couplings on both the top, and bottom, there would have been no thread stretching at all. But someone else will have to try that experiment, I'm done. For the bottom, I had a scrap piece of pipe that worked great to compress against the lower a arm, but anything stronger than the spring, that will not fit thru the shock opening in the a arm, should work just fine.

 

I am still not 100% comfortable with the finale fit. I'm going to leave them alone for the rest of the build, just so I can move on, but the first 50 miles I put on the car will be over some of the roughest roads I can find, then I'm gonna look at them again. My biggest fear is that the spindle is not seated 100% still. If rough roads then finish seating it, what will the resulting gap between the castle nut and spindle cause? My guess is nothing, the spindle will remain properly seated, and there will just be a little gap between the nut and the bottom of the spindle. But what if the spindle does not stay seated, could the spindle then move up and down with each bump in the road? I realize the upper a arm is mostly for alignment, and not load bearing, but its a tapered shaft, what's that slop gonna do?
Please update me with any info you find. Thanks.

 

The dust cover was a little smashed, the same piece of scrap pipe i used for a spring compressor, worked great to hold the cap while I beat the tar out of it with an old ratchet.

 

After about 10 minutes of working on the cap, It dawned on me that it's a $5 dust cap. So I just cleaned it up and painted it.

Maybe it's still to hot to work afterall.

 

On the passenger side, I rebuilt the wheel bearings on the work bench, and installed the whole thing at one time. Lesson learned. Because of newly painted parts, I didn't want to put them into a vise, so they just wanted to flop around, and it was a pain. This time I waited to install the rotor until after the spindle was on the car. Much easier.

 

So, this is a little out of sequence, but I've been trying to figure out which bushings go in the trailing arms.
The following is emails between me and zip corvette.


Message:
This kit says it includes the trailing arm bushings, minus the outer steel . My questions are, which box are these bushings in, and how are they installed? Thanks in advance

reply.


I am not sure which box they are in, but there are 4 of them and they look similar to the strut rod bushing. You have to remove the rubber from the outer shell of the originals and then install the poly ones in their. You will have to use a new sleeve to flare and we sell those kits as well.

Justin Abbott

Zip Products, Inc.

Vice President

8067 Fast Lane

Mechanicsville VA, 23111

1.800.962.9632 ext 256

Zip-corvette.com

Response.


I have been trying to calm down, and have a polite response, hence the 3 day stall. What I purchased was supposed to be a complete suspension bushing kit. With the same order, I also purchased a complete body bushing kit. So, if I only received part of a couple of the bushings I need from the suspension kit, what am I missing from the body kit? Why would you sell part of a bushing that requires more to install? And lastly, each and everyone of the boxes that came in the kit have a part number on a sticker. Why would you not be able to tell me which part number is which bushing?
At least you responded tho, thats more than vbandp did when they sent me a wrong ball joint. 4 weeks now and no response from them.

Justin Abbott
Mon, 07/10/17 7:49 am

Mr. Bell,
That is how all the polyurethane company's make the bushing. The outer shell is stamped steel and if they had to make those 4 parts to send to you it would more than double the price of the kit. This is nothing new with poly bushings on the installs. Most of them make you use some of the original parts, as time goes on though they are making more and more of those parts so that you don't have to re-use anything. The T-arm bushings are not one of them yet though because they are stamped and not turned. That kit you purchased does not have our part numbers inside, it is a kit from Prothane which is why I can't tell you which box is which, but they are fairly clear once you get them opened which bushing is which. The body mount cushions do not use outer shells on any of them so it should be complete.

Mr. Abbott:
Again I thank you for your response. Other vendors seem not to care as much. I fully understand the need to reuse the old outer sleeve portion of the trailing arm bushings, Not part of any complaint I have. My concern, complaint, is that the " complete suspension bushing kit " that I purchased, still does not include necessary parts of bushings, the inner steel tube, and the required flaring tool to install. Yes, you have these for sale as separate items, ( which you told me in the first email) but if a customer pays for a complete kit? Shouldn't you at least declare that needed parts are not included?

As to the part numbers, I bought this stuff from you. Not prothane. You should know what your selling!

A couple more bushings is not going to hurt my build at all, I'm on track to to go over budget before I even get the body back on, so all is normal. However, alot of viewers are watching my build online, and I'm doing a 100% honest feed. All the good and bad. So I'm trying to nail this down so it doesn't happen to someone else.
Again I thank you for your response,
Scott

 

Mr. Bell,
You are asking me what a manufacturer's internal part number or component number is in a kit. You do realize we sell probably 80+ thousand parts, my part number for the trailing arm bushing is SU-831. The complete Prothane kit you purchased includes their t-arm bushing kit, but it does not come with the outer shells, or sleeves just bushings. We do not offer these by themselves because of this, however they are included in their kit. Their kit save a decent amount of money over buying the individual pieces and there will be some throw away parts in there. You were upset about the tools not being included as well in the 'Complete kit", I don't know of any part that included an tools especially trailing arm tools. Our SU-831 included a special cut bolt that is pretty much a one time use flaring tool to be used with it. I would suggest you look at that on our website and go with that part in addition to what you already have.
Justin.

 

Thanks for responding again Justin:
Again, I wish other vendors were as vigilante as you have been in communications. Problem #1 is: How is a customer supposed to know that the part numbers on each box is someone else's part number? I now know that I need to look up prothanes numbers to figure out which bushing is which, I realized I recieved many extra bushings in the kit, but I have 4 boxes with different numbers, that to the eye, all look the same.
Suggestion to fix problem #1: Post in the description of all kits, that part numbers should be verified thru the original manufacture.
Problem #2: Inclusion of special tools in some kits, but not others.
Suggestion to fix problem #2:

Hmm, ugh, well, All I can think of that "may" be practical, is another added disclaimer to the description of each kit. Something like; Some package kits may require the use of special tools or equipment for install, please contact (blank) to see if these are included in the kit.
Or, another approach could be to invest in "cry baby detection software" that way you could screen people like me from even purchasing from you. Seriously, The lack of needed tool was nothing new to me, it did kinda rub me the wrong way when I looked into things more, and saw that you did include it in other kits, so I just kinda ran with it in my email, but its a tool I all along knew I had to get. ( emoji of crying baby here )

Problem #3: I still need the rest of the bushings, and the flare tool to install them.
Suggestion to fix #3: I will be ordering the bushing kit you have that includes the one time use flare tool to install.

Again, I thank you for you diligence in response. NOW, I have a huge favor to ask, or more like a challenge for you.
If you back read a little of this post, you'll see the problem I'm having with upper ball joints. I'm not the only one, there are hundreds of posts on this site, and other corvette sites where people are confused if the new ball joints made are correct or not. I'm not talking about correct for judging, I just mean correct for the car or not. I've researched it to no avail. The dimensions between the original, and the new replacements are certainly different, but I can't find an answer as to why, also, it might only be certain models that are affected? Another thing I can't answer. I'm too dang old to hurt anyone, so I might as well try to help, right?

So anyway, I got you a little riled up, I know, Sorry. Then I sorta apologized, right? I was in the wrong some. But THEN, I throw down the gauntlet on you with this dare to sort out the ball joint issue. If you can't help with this, I understand, and I still hope your chickens don't lay bad eggs. (emoji of smelly rotten egg here )

Thanks again, and I hope you at least giggle a little when reading this.
Scott (Hope it was ok to address you as Justin)

 

Scott,
Like I explained in the email, I am not going to keep monitoring the post, just not enough time. Yes not all the balljoints are correct, and I am not talking about judging I am talking about proper fit. There is a ton of bad China ball joints gong around. The diameter of the taper is too big and it does not fully seat into the matching taper of the upright, and also leaving enough threads to put a nut on. If you blue the taper you will see it is only hitting on two small portions of the taper. This has been going on for years, you have to be careful of where you are getting them from and which ones they are.