My first rebuild
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,428
Likes: 5
From: Japan
FatCat, what you're seeing so far is to be totally expected for a first-timer. I went through a lot of the same myself, just like Scotty (thanks, BTW) and others here.
Some more things to consider, lest you get discouraged...
When Ed Cole and his team designed the venerable small-block Chevrolet V8 back in 1954, they were looking to create the simplest, easiest-to-assemble overhead-valve cast-iron V8 engine known to man, and that is exactly what they accomplished. A small-block Chevy is absolute simplicity defined, and as such was designed to be field-stripped and rebuilt by relative simpletons such as myself much as Marines can be taught to clean and rebuild M1 Garand rifles blindfolded and in the dark.
THAT SAID, there ARE some simple do's and don't's. Now that you've got the motor apart and have had a chance to look at everything, READ VIZARD's BOOK!!! Also, I'm not sure what kind of pistons you have in there other than the fact that they are SOME kind of cast pieces, maybe hypereutectic (fancy term for high-silicon castings), but you are going to have to spring for a new set. How hard you want to run the rebuilt unit will tell you what kind of replacements to get. I have Silvolite hypers in my +.030" 350; it rarely sees 5000 rpm, so no problem. My track car sees 7k quite often, hence it is fitted with semi-trick Probe forged pieces. If you KNOW FOR SURE that you're not gonna dog this thing out, you can get away with using inexpensive cast pistons, but if you put those things in there along with a valvetrain that will allow the motor to pull 7k and decide to get a little frisky one night...could suck to be you, and you'll be starting another one of these threads.
Along with getting the block and heads cleaned and magged, you will also need to have the bores measured for diameter and taper. Those pistons were not stock pieces, so with the numbers you referred to, I'm guessing the block has already been bored +.030". A typical '.030" over' piston will actually be something on the order of 4.026", which will give you a clearance of .004" in a 4.030" bore. If you can find replacement pistons that fit within an acceptable 'window' and your bores are not yet too large, then you can safely reassemble the motor with a new set of +.030" over pistons. If, on the other hand, your bores are worn out to, say, 4.035", you would not be able to safely run a +.030" over piston. At that point you will have to decide whether or not you want to spring for an additional .010" overbore to allow '+.040" over' pistons.
As far as the crank/rods/bottom end goes, I saw nothing in those pictures that would indicate any cause for alarm. All the bearings look nearly new, but the pictures are blurry and were obviously taken in low light with a slow shutter speed. Did you put some kind of sleeves over the rod bolts as you were removing the pistons? If you didn't and one or more of those rod bolt ends even slightly dinged the crank it will have left a mark, I GUARAN-DAMN-TEE, so go back and examine all of the crank journals very carefully for any kind of longitudinal dings. If there are, it's not cause to panic, you can dress them out with a very fine jeweler's file if you're careful.
So, these are your next assignments:
(1) READ THE BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(2) Call your chosen machine shop (preferably one that you've been referred to by someone you know and trust) and ask the following:
a) How much to clean/mag 1 block and two heads, and what method do you use?
b) How much to measure and record 8 bore sizes for diameter and taper?
c) What is the most that a valve job could cost at your shop and the least (New valves, guides, seals, and cut/grind the seats vs. just disassemble the heads and grind the valves)
d) If needed, how much to replace a set of cam bearings?
(3) At this point you can also ask them what they charge for decking the block and heads but be very adamant about NOT allowing them to do this at this time. I will tell you why later...
(4) Ask them what they will charge to de-mount and re-mount a set of pistons, and what it will cost to balance the rotating assembly.
This is where this can get a little tricky, and is really more difficult than actually putting the motor together once you've got a package that is ready to go. This HAS to be done ONE STEP AT A TIME so that you don't wind up throwing good money after bad, i.e., don't spend money on a $600 valve job if you're gonna throw the block away and get a crate motor or long block. Go through each fork in the road a step at a time. If your block won't hold a +.030" piston, do you really want to go to the expense and hassle of fitting a set of +.040" units? If not, STOP THERE AND SAVE YOUR MONEY. Again, finding a shop that you KNOW to be reputable is important here, because just like so many other auto repair outfits there are machine shops that will do work "because they thought that's what you were telling them to do".
SO, you now have your orders, Grasshopper. Follow the steps and make us proud
Some more things to consider, lest you get discouraged...
When Ed Cole and his team designed the venerable small-block Chevrolet V8 back in 1954, they were looking to create the simplest, easiest-to-assemble overhead-valve cast-iron V8 engine known to man, and that is exactly what they accomplished. A small-block Chevy is absolute simplicity defined, and as such was designed to be field-stripped and rebuilt by relative simpletons such as myself much as Marines can be taught to clean and rebuild M1 Garand rifles blindfolded and in the dark.
THAT SAID, there ARE some simple do's and don't's. Now that you've got the motor apart and have had a chance to look at everything, READ VIZARD's BOOK!!! Also, I'm not sure what kind of pistons you have in there other than the fact that they are SOME kind of cast pieces, maybe hypereutectic (fancy term for high-silicon castings), but you are going to have to spring for a new set. How hard you want to run the rebuilt unit will tell you what kind of replacements to get. I have Silvolite hypers in my +.030" 350; it rarely sees 5000 rpm, so no problem. My track car sees 7k quite often, hence it is fitted with semi-trick Probe forged pieces. If you KNOW FOR SURE that you're not gonna dog this thing out, you can get away with using inexpensive cast pistons, but if you put those things in there along with a valvetrain that will allow the motor to pull 7k and decide to get a little frisky one night...could suck to be you, and you'll be starting another one of these threads.
Along with getting the block and heads cleaned and magged, you will also need to have the bores measured for diameter and taper. Those pistons were not stock pieces, so with the numbers you referred to, I'm guessing the block has already been bored +.030". A typical '.030" over' piston will actually be something on the order of 4.026", which will give you a clearance of .004" in a 4.030" bore. If you can find replacement pistons that fit within an acceptable 'window' and your bores are not yet too large, then you can safely reassemble the motor with a new set of +.030" over pistons. If, on the other hand, your bores are worn out to, say, 4.035", you would not be able to safely run a +.030" over piston. At that point you will have to decide whether or not you want to spring for an additional .010" overbore to allow '+.040" over' pistons.
As far as the crank/rods/bottom end goes, I saw nothing in those pictures that would indicate any cause for alarm. All the bearings look nearly new, but the pictures are blurry and were obviously taken in low light with a slow shutter speed. Did you put some kind of sleeves over the rod bolts as you were removing the pistons? If you didn't and one or more of those rod bolt ends even slightly dinged the crank it will have left a mark, I GUARAN-DAMN-TEE, so go back and examine all of the crank journals very carefully for any kind of longitudinal dings. If there are, it's not cause to panic, you can dress them out with a very fine jeweler's file if you're careful.
So, these are your next assignments:
(1) READ THE BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(2) Call your chosen machine shop (preferably one that you've been referred to by someone you know and trust) and ask the following:
a) How much to clean/mag 1 block and two heads, and what method do you use?
b) How much to measure and record 8 bore sizes for diameter and taper?
c) What is the most that a valve job could cost at your shop and the least (New valves, guides, seals, and cut/grind the seats vs. just disassemble the heads and grind the valves)
d) If needed, how much to replace a set of cam bearings?
(3) At this point you can also ask them what they charge for decking the block and heads but be very adamant about NOT allowing them to do this at this time. I will tell you why later...
(4) Ask them what they will charge to de-mount and re-mount a set of pistons, and what it will cost to balance the rotating assembly.
This is where this can get a little tricky, and is really more difficult than actually putting the motor together once you've got a package that is ready to go. This HAS to be done ONE STEP AT A TIME so that you don't wind up throwing good money after bad, i.e., don't spend money on a $600 valve job if you're gonna throw the block away and get a crate motor or long block. Go through each fork in the road a step at a time. If your block won't hold a +.030" piston, do you really want to go to the expense and hassle of fitting a set of +.040" units? If not, STOP THERE AND SAVE YOUR MONEY. Again, finding a shop that you KNOW to be reputable is important here, because just like so many other auto repair outfits there are machine shops that will do work "because they thought that's what you were telling them to do".
SO, you now have your orders, Grasshopper. Follow the steps and make us proud
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,548
Likes: 379
From: Woodinville WA
^^^^ good post, I'll add one bit. I know they have pistons that are .060 oversized.... I'm in the school that says over .030 is too much because you'll start running into cooling problems at .040 on the SBC.
Maybe this will help with your cleaning frenzy. The time of the most stress is looking at your meticulously cleaned engine compartment after 500 miles on a freshly paved road. After that, you'll wash it - clean it? most folks simply say "no, I'd rather drive my car"
Maybe this will help with your cleaning frenzy. The time of the most stress is looking at your meticulously cleaned engine compartment after 500 miles on a freshly paved road. After that, you'll wash it - clean it? most folks simply say "no, I'd rather drive my car"
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 2
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
FatCat, what you're seeing so far is to be totally expected for a first-timer. I went through a lot of the same myself, just like Scotty (thanks, BTW) and others here.
Some more things to consider, lest you get discouraged...
When Ed Cole and his team designed the venerable small-block Chevrolet V8 back in 1954, they were looking to create the simplest, easiest-to-assemble overhead-valve cast-iron V8 engine known to man, and that is exactly what they accomplished. A small-block Chevy is absolute simplicity defined, and as such was designed to be field-stripped and rebuilt by relative simpletons such as myself much as Marines can be taught to clean and rebuild M1 Garand rifles blindfolded and in the dark.
THAT SAID, there ARE some simple do's and don't's. Now that you've got the motor apart and have had a chance to look at everything, READ VIZARD's BOOK!!! Also, I'm not sure what kind of pistons you have in there other than the fact that they are SOME kind of cast pieces, maybe hypereutectic (fancy term for high-silicon castings), but you are going to have to spring for a new set. How hard you want to run the rebuilt unit will tell you what kind of replacements to get. I have Silvolite hypers in my +.030" 350; it rarely sees 5000 rpm, so no problem. My track car sees 7k quite often, hence it is fitted with semi-trick Probe forged pieces. If you KNOW FOR SURE that you're not gonna dog this thing out, you can get away with using inexpensive cast pistons, but if you put those things in there along with a valvetrain that will allow the motor to pull 7k and decide to get a little frisky one night...could suck to be you, and you'll be starting another one of these threads.
Along with getting the block and heads cleaned and magged, you will also need to have the bores measured for diameter and taper. Those pistons were not stock pieces, so with the numbers you referred to, I'm guessing the block has already been bored +.030". A typical '.030" over' piston will actually be something on the order of 4.026", which will give you a clearance of .004" in a 4.030" bore. If you can find replacement pistons that fit within an acceptable 'window' and your bores are not yet too large, then you can safely reassemble the motor with a new set of +.030" over pistons. If, on the other hand, your bores are worn out to, say, 4.035", you would not be able to safely run a +.030" over piston. At that point you will have to decide whether or not you want to spring for an additional .010" overbore to allow '+.040" over' pistons.
As far as the crank/rods/bottom end goes, I saw nothing in those pictures that would indicate any cause for alarm. All the bearings look nearly new, but the pictures are blurry and were obviously taken in low light with a slow shutter speed. Did you put some kind of sleeves over the rod bolts as you were removing the pistons? If you didn't and one or more of those rod bolt ends even slightly dinged the crank it will have left a mark, I GUARAN-DAMN-TEE, so go back and examine all of the crank journals very carefully for any kind of longitudinal dings. If there are, it's not cause to panic, you can dress them out with a very fine jeweler's file if you're careful.
So, these are your next assignments:
(1) READ THE BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(2) Call your chosen machine shop (preferably one that you've been referred to by someone you know and trust) and ask the following:
a) How much to clean/mag 1 block and two heads, and what method do you use?
b) How much to measure and record 8 bore sizes for diameter and taper?
c) What is the most that a valve job could cost at your shop and the least (New valves, guides, seals, and cut/grind the seats vs. just disassemble the heads and grind the valves)
d) If needed, how much to replace a set of cam bearings?
(3) At this point you can also ask them what they charge for decking the block and heads but be very adamant about NOT allowing them to do this at this time. I will tell you why later...
(4) Ask them what they will charge to de-mount and re-mount a set of pistons, and what it will cost to balance the rotating assembly.
This is where this can get a little tricky, and is really more difficult than actually putting the motor together once you've got a package that is ready to go. This HAS to be done ONE STEP AT A TIME so that you don't wind up throwing good money after bad, i.e., don't spend money on a $600 valve job if you're gonna throw the block away and get a crate motor or long block. Go through each fork in the road a step at a time. If your block won't hold a +.030" piston, do you really want to go to the expense and hassle of fitting a set of +.040" units? If not, STOP THERE AND SAVE YOUR MONEY. Again, finding a shop that you KNOW to be reputable is important here, because just like so many other auto repair outfits there are machine shops that will do work "because they thought that's what you were telling them to do".
SO, you now have your orders, Grasshopper. Follow the steps and make us proud
Some more things to consider, lest you get discouraged...
When Ed Cole and his team designed the venerable small-block Chevrolet V8 back in 1954, they were looking to create the simplest, easiest-to-assemble overhead-valve cast-iron V8 engine known to man, and that is exactly what they accomplished. A small-block Chevy is absolute simplicity defined, and as such was designed to be field-stripped and rebuilt by relative simpletons such as myself much as Marines can be taught to clean and rebuild M1 Garand rifles blindfolded and in the dark.
THAT SAID, there ARE some simple do's and don't's. Now that you've got the motor apart and have had a chance to look at everything, READ VIZARD's BOOK!!! Also, I'm not sure what kind of pistons you have in there other than the fact that they are SOME kind of cast pieces, maybe hypereutectic (fancy term for high-silicon castings), but you are going to have to spring for a new set. How hard you want to run the rebuilt unit will tell you what kind of replacements to get. I have Silvolite hypers in my +.030" 350; it rarely sees 5000 rpm, so no problem. My track car sees 7k quite often, hence it is fitted with semi-trick Probe forged pieces. If you KNOW FOR SURE that you're not gonna dog this thing out, you can get away with using inexpensive cast pistons, but if you put those things in there along with a valvetrain that will allow the motor to pull 7k and decide to get a little frisky one night...could suck to be you, and you'll be starting another one of these threads.
Along with getting the block and heads cleaned and magged, you will also need to have the bores measured for diameter and taper. Those pistons were not stock pieces, so with the numbers you referred to, I'm guessing the block has already been bored +.030". A typical '.030" over' piston will actually be something on the order of 4.026", which will give you a clearance of .004" in a 4.030" bore. If you can find replacement pistons that fit within an acceptable 'window' and your bores are not yet too large, then you can safely reassemble the motor with a new set of +.030" over pistons. If, on the other hand, your bores are worn out to, say, 4.035", you would not be able to safely run a +.030" over piston. At that point you will have to decide whether or not you want to spring for an additional .010" overbore to allow '+.040" over' pistons.
As far as the crank/rods/bottom end goes, I saw nothing in those pictures that would indicate any cause for alarm. All the bearings look nearly new, but the pictures are blurry and were obviously taken in low light with a slow shutter speed. Did you put some kind of sleeves over the rod bolts as you were removing the pistons? If you didn't and one or more of those rod bolt ends even slightly dinged the crank it will have left a mark, I GUARAN-DAMN-TEE, so go back and examine all of the crank journals very carefully for any kind of longitudinal dings. If there are, it's not cause to panic, you can dress them out with a very fine jeweler's file if you're careful.
So, these are your next assignments:
(1) READ THE BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(2) Call your chosen machine shop (preferably one that you've been referred to by someone you know and trust) and ask the following:
a) How much to clean/mag 1 block and two heads, and what method do you use?
b) How much to measure and record 8 bore sizes for diameter and taper?
c) What is the most that a valve job could cost at your shop and the least (New valves, guides, seals, and cut/grind the seats vs. just disassemble the heads and grind the valves)
d) If needed, how much to replace a set of cam bearings?
(3) At this point you can also ask them what they charge for decking the block and heads but be very adamant about NOT allowing them to do this at this time. I will tell you why later...
(4) Ask them what they will charge to de-mount and re-mount a set of pistons, and what it will cost to balance the rotating assembly.
This is where this can get a little tricky, and is really more difficult than actually putting the motor together once you've got a package that is ready to go. This HAS to be done ONE STEP AT A TIME so that you don't wind up throwing good money after bad, i.e., don't spend money on a $600 valve job if you're gonna throw the block away and get a crate motor or long block. Go through each fork in the road a step at a time. If your block won't hold a +.030" piston, do you really want to go to the expense and hassle of fitting a set of +.040" units? If not, STOP THERE AND SAVE YOUR MONEY. Again, finding a shop that you KNOW to be reputable is important here, because just like so many other auto repair outfits there are machine shops that will do work "because they thought that's what you were telling them to do".
SO, you now have your orders, Grasshopper. Follow the steps and make us proud
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 2
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
^^^^ good post, I'll add one bit. I know they have pistons that are .060 oversized.... I'm in the school that says over .030 is too much because you'll start running into cooling problems at .040 on the SBC.
Maybe this will help with your cleaning frenzy. The time of the most stress is looking at your meticulously cleaned engine compartment after 500 miles on a freshly paved road. After that, you'll wash it - clean it? most folks simply say "no, I'd rather drive my car"
Maybe this will help with your cleaning frenzy. The time of the most stress is looking at your meticulously cleaned engine compartment after 500 miles on a freshly paved road. After that, you'll wash it - clean it? most folks simply say "no, I'd rather drive my car"
I am going to have to check and see if I can buy bushings and such at my local parts store and figure out what I have to replace. I had the frontend checked out and they said it was all in good order but man the bushings on the upper and lower control arm are terrible.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,948
Likes: 72
From: Oxford MA-----You just lost the game!!!!
OK, I'm on my home computer, and can view pics, and I would have to agree.....yes, that piston is broken! Nothing a little JB Weld can't fix though.......Ha! Just kidding, you need a new one. I also agree that just trying to slap one new piston into the engine is a fool's errand. You need a new set of pistons, and the rotating assembly will need to be balanced. It's kind of a shame that those bearings all look so nice, but new ones are pretty cheap, ya might as well chuck new ones in. Once the block and crank comes back from the machine shop, we'll know what we need to go shopping for.
A random factoid:
Cam bearings: Cam bearings don't usually need to be replaced, because they don't see the same kind of pressures that the main and rod bearings do. The cam just spins with an even pressure on the bearing surface all the time, also, it only spins at half the speed of the crankshaft, and the cam bearings are one of the first areas to receive oil pressure from the oil pump, so they don't usually show a lot of wear. Unless you've got a situation where some grit has gotten past the oil filter, in which case all of your bearings will be smoked, looks like you're safe here.
Bearing sizes: If, for whatever reason, a crankshaft needs to be machined, (say, to remove scratches on the journal) the journal will be smaller, obviously. Say .020" is taken off to clean things up. The bearings will now need to be thicker, in order to make up for the smaller crank journal. If the journal is now .020" smaller in diameter, that means that .010" was taken off all the way around the circumference, so each bearing shell will need to be .010" thicker, get it? I believe in this case, the bearings will need to be ordered ".020" undersize". It's been awhile since I've had to deal with this myself, so if I am making an error here, can somebody straighten me out? Thanks. Your crank may not need any work, but it may have been machined in the past, the machine shop should measure and let you know. The same applies for the rods bearings.
I'm still wondering where all that bearing material in the oil came from. All the bearings look really nice. Can you take a look at the piston skirts and see if any of them show any kind of a wear pattern? Feel free to drop them all you want, now, you'll be getting new ones, anyway.
Sorry, I just couldn't resist a little jab at ya!
The camshaft: Curious about the cam. There should be some sort of part numbers stamped into the machined face of the cam, these will tell you, (maybe) info about the cam grind. Anything that is actually cast into the cam was cast there when the cam blank was being made, long before the blank became whatever cam grind it is now. Almost all camshafts are ground from a blank, which is just a generic casting. Once the cam is machined into a certain camshaft, they can stamp a part number into it, so look for some numbers stamped into a machined face. I have a hankering to know what that cam is all about, just out of curiosity. I have always been a curious sort of a guy. When I was a little kid, I remember my Dad always saying "You're a curious little monkey, aren't you?". He was a very pragmatic kind of guy when it came to that sort of thing.
It is generally accepted that once a cam and lifter set are broken in, the lifters cannot be re-arranged. Each lifter must stay with the cam lobe that it is broken in to. They are "married", so to speak. So sayeth the God of Speed! Bow down and worship! However, I have read several people say that they do it all the time, and don't have problems, you just need to break it in again. (I have read this almost exclusively from circle track racers, they are infamous for just slapping stuff together to make it to a race! One factor here might be that the cam doesn't have to last 100,00 miles, it just has to last till the end of a race!) Flat-tappet cams and lifters are pretty cheap, considering, so I think the smart thing to do would be to play it safe.
Keep the shiny side up!
Scott
A random factoid:
Cam bearings: Cam bearings don't usually need to be replaced, because they don't see the same kind of pressures that the main and rod bearings do. The cam just spins with an even pressure on the bearing surface all the time, also, it only spins at half the speed of the crankshaft, and the cam bearings are one of the first areas to receive oil pressure from the oil pump, so they don't usually show a lot of wear. Unless you've got a situation where some grit has gotten past the oil filter, in which case all of your bearings will be smoked, looks like you're safe here.
Bearing sizes: If, for whatever reason, a crankshaft needs to be machined, (say, to remove scratches on the journal) the journal will be smaller, obviously. Say .020" is taken off to clean things up. The bearings will now need to be thicker, in order to make up for the smaller crank journal. If the journal is now .020" smaller in diameter, that means that .010" was taken off all the way around the circumference, so each bearing shell will need to be .010" thicker, get it? I believe in this case, the bearings will need to be ordered ".020" undersize". It's been awhile since I've had to deal with this myself, so if I am making an error here, can somebody straighten me out? Thanks. Your crank may not need any work, but it may have been machined in the past, the machine shop should measure and let you know. The same applies for the rods bearings.
I'm still wondering where all that bearing material in the oil came from. All the bearings look really nice. Can you take a look at the piston skirts and see if any of them show any kind of a wear pattern? Feel free to drop them all you want, now, you'll be getting new ones, anyway.
Sorry, I just couldn't resist a little jab at ya!The camshaft: Curious about the cam. There should be some sort of part numbers stamped into the machined face of the cam, these will tell you, (maybe) info about the cam grind. Anything that is actually cast into the cam was cast there when the cam blank was being made, long before the blank became whatever cam grind it is now. Almost all camshafts are ground from a blank, which is just a generic casting. Once the cam is machined into a certain camshaft, they can stamp a part number into it, so look for some numbers stamped into a machined face. I have a hankering to know what that cam is all about, just out of curiosity. I have always been a curious sort of a guy. When I was a little kid, I remember my Dad always saying "You're a curious little monkey, aren't you?". He was a very pragmatic kind of guy when it came to that sort of thing.
It is generally accepted that once a cam and lifter set are broken in, the lifters cannot be re-arranged. Each lifter must stay with the cam lobe that it is broken in to. They are "married", so to speak. So sayeth the God of Speed! Bow down and worship! However, I have read several people say that they do it all the time, and don't have problems, you just need to break it in again. (I have read this almost exclusively from circle track racers, they are infamous for just slapping stuff together to make it to a race! One factor here might be that the cam doesn't have to last 100,00 miles, it just has to last till the end of a race!) Flat-tappet cams and lifters are pretty cheap, considering, so I think the smart thing to do would be to play it safe.
Keep the shiny side up!
Scott
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,948
Likes: 72
From: Oxford MA-----You just lost the game!!!!
I am not getting discouraged at all on this deal, I have just never known myself to be so **** about cleaning something.
I am going to have to check and see if I can buy bushings and such at my local parts store and figure out what I have to replace. I had the frontend checked out and they said it was all in good order but man the bushings on the upper and lower control arm are terrible.
I am going to have to check and see if I can buy bushings and such at my local parts store and figure out what I have to replace. I had the frontend checked out and they said it was all in good order but man the bushings on the upper and lower control arm are terrible.
Keep the shiny side up!
Scott
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 2
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
OK, I'm on my home computer, and can view pics, and I would have to agree.....yes, that piston is broken! Nothing a little JB Weld can't fix though.......Ha! Just kidding, you need a new one. I also agree that just trying to slap one new piston into the engine is a fool's errand. You need a new set of pistons, and the rotating assembly will need to be balanced. It's kind of a shame that those bearings all look so nice, but new ones are pretty cheap, ya might as well chuck new ones in. Once the block and crank comes back from the machine shop, we'll know what we need to go shopping for.
A random factoid:
Cam bearings: Cam bearings don't usually need to be replaced, because they don't see the same kind of pressures that the main and rod bearings do. The cam just spins with an even pressure on the bearing surface all the time, also, it only spins at half the speed of the crankshaft, and the cam bearings are one of the first areas to receive oil pressure from the oil pump, so they don't usually show a lot of wear. Unless you've got a situation where some grit has gotten past the oil filter, in which case all of your bearings will be smoked, looks like you're safe here.
Bearing sizes: If, for whatever reason, a crankshaft needs to be machined, (say, to remove scratches on the journal) the journal will be smaller, obviously. Say .020" is taken off to clean things up. The bearings will now need to be thicker, in order to make up for the smaller crank journal. If the journal is now .020" smaller in diameter, that means that .010" was taken off all the way around the circumference, so each bearing shell will need to be .010" thicker, get it? I believe in this case, the bearings will need to be ordered ".020" undersize". It's been awhile since I've had to deal with this myself, so if I am making an error here, can somebody straighten me out? Thanks. Your crank may not need any work, but it may have been machined in the past, the machine shop should measure and let you know. The same applies for the rods bearings.
I'm still wondering where all that bearing material in the oil came from. All the bearings look really nice. Can you take a look at the piston skirts and see if any of them show any kind of a wear pattern? Feel free to drop them all you want, now, you'll be getting new ones, anyway. Sorry, I just couldn't resist a little jab at ya!
The camshaft: Curious about the cam. There should be some sort of part numbers stamped into the machined face of the cam, these will tell you, (maybe) info about the cam grind. Anything that is actually cast into the cam was cast there when the cam blank was being made, long before the blank became whatever cam grind it is now. Almost all camshafts are ground from a blank, which is just a generic casting. Once the cam is machined into a certain camshaft, they can stamp a part number into it, so look for some numbers stamped into a machined face. I have a hankering to know what that cam is all about, just out of curiosity. I have always been a curious sort of a guy. When I was a little kid, I remember my Dad always saying "You're a curious little monkey, aren't you?". He was a very pragmatic kind of guy when it came to that sort of thing.
It is generally accepted that once a cam and lifter set are broken in, the lifters cannot be re-arranged. Each lifter must stay with the cam lobe that it is broken in to. They are "married", so to speak. So sayeth the God of Speed! Bow down and worship! However, I have read several people say that they do it all the time, and don't have problems, you just need to break it in again. (I have read this almost exclusively from circle track racers, they are infamous for just slapping stuff together to make it to a race! One factor here might be that the cam doesn't have to last 100,00 miles, it just has to last till the end of a race!) Flat-tappet cams and lifters are pretty cheap, considering, so I think the smart thing to do would be to play it safe.
Keep the shiny side up!
Scott
A random factoid:
Cam bearings: Cam bearings don't usually need to be replaced, because they don't see the same kind of pressures that the main and rod bearings do. The cam just spins with an even pressure on the bearing surface all the time, also, it only spins at half the speed of the crankshaft, and the cam bearings are one of the first areas to receive oil pressure from the oil pump, so they don't usually show a lot of wear. Unless you've got a situation where some grit has gotten past the oil filter, in which case all of your bearings will be smoked, looks like you're safe here.
Bearing sizes: If, for whatever reason, a crankshaft needs to be machined, (say, to remove scratches on the journal) the journal will be smaller, obviously. Say .020" is taken off to clean things up. The bearings will now need to be thicker, in order to make up for the smaller crank journal. If the journal is now .020" smaller in diameter, that means that .010" was taken off all the way around the circumference, so each bearing shell will need to be .010" thicker, get it? I believe in this case, the bearings will need to be ordered ".020" undersize". It's been awhile since I've had to deal with this myself, so if I am making an error here, can somebody straighten me out? Thanks. Your crank may not need any work, but it may have been machined in the past, the machine shop should measure and let you know. The same applies for the rods bearings.
I'm still wondering where all that bearing material in the oil came from. All the bearings look really nice. Can you take a look at the piston skirts and see if any of them show any kind of a wear pattern? Feel free to drop them all you want, now, you'll be getting new ones, anyway.
Sorry, I just couldn't resist a little jab at ya!The camshaft: Curious about the cam. There should be some sort of part numbers stamped into the machined face of the cam, these will tell you, (maybe) info about the cam grind. Anything that is actually cast into the cam was cast there when the cam blank was being made, long before the blank became whatever cam grind it is now. Almost all camshafts are ground from a blank, which is just a generic casting. Once the cam is machined into a certain camshaft, they can stamp a part number into it, so look for some numbers stamped into a machined face. I have a hankering to know what that cam is all about, just out of curiosity. I have always been a curious sort of a guy. When I was a little kid, I remember my Dad always saying "You're a curious little monkey, aren't you?". He was a very pragmatic kind of guy when it came to that sort of thing.
It is generally accepted that once a cam and lifter set are broken in, the lifters cannot be re-arranged. Each lifter must stay with the cam lobe that it is broken in to. They are "married", so to speak. So sayeth the God of Speed! Bow down and worship! However, I have read several people say that they do it all the time, and don't have problems, you just need to break it in again. (I have read this almost exclusively from circle track racers, they are infamous for just slapping stuff together to make it to a race! One factor here might be that the cam doesn't have to last 100,00 miles, it just has to last till the end of a race!) Flat-tappet cams and lifters are pretty cheap, considering, so I think the smart thing to do would be to play it safe.
Keep the shiny side up!
Scott
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 2
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Uh-oh! I think what we are seeing here is the early stages of "While-I'm-at-it-itus". Man, it's an old car. Everything you try to fix up is going to be connected to something else that could also use a little fixing up. If you don't get "while-I'm-at-it-itus" under control, it will spiral out of control, resulting in a car that sits in the garage in a zillion pieces. Just remember the old saying "How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time."
Keep the shiny side up!
Scott
Keep the shiny side up!
Scott
"While-I'm-at-it-itus" has set in adn I am heading to Betty Ford before it distroys my car!My plan on the compartment is to start on the passenger side firewall and move around to the drivers side.
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,233
Likes: 657
From: Thunder Bay
Love this thread!!! I must. I just spent 1/2 an hour reading it.
2 comments. I understand the need to rebuild an engine yourself. Isn't that part of the reason we drive these cars? If we didn't want to do it ourselves, why not just go out and buy a new Corvette? OK, maybe the price tag has something to do with it also.
Second, did no one else see the crack on the top of the piston is one of the early posts??
2 comments. I understand the need to rebuild an engine yourself. Isn't that part of the reason we drive these cars? If we didn't want to do it ourselves, why not just go out and buy a new Corvette? OK, maybe the price tag has something to do with it also.
Second, did no one else see the crack on the top of the piston is one of the early posts??
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 2
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Love this thread!!! I must. I just spent 1/2 an hour reading it.
2 comments. I understand the need to rebuild an engine yourself. Isn't that part of the reason we drive these cars? If we didn't want to do it ourselves, why not just go out and buy a new Corvette? OK, maybe the price tag has something to do with it also.
Second, did no one else see the crack on the top of the piston is one of the early posts??
2 comments. I understand the need to rebuild an engine yourself. Isn't that part of the reason we drive these cars? If we didn't want to do it ourselves, why not just go out and buy a new Corvette? OK, maybe the price tag has something to do with it also.
Second, did no one else see the crack on the top of the piston is one of the early posts??
Last edited by FatCat; Nov 25, 2012 at 12:32 PM.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 2
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Who's up for helping me with engine compartment questions..Be careful, you know there will be many...
First off I do have an AIM disk but man it's all greek to me. I want to start on the passenger side. I would like to keep the AC system (even though the compressor is long gone) I want to pull evaporator and blower assy. it looks like a daunting taks. The reason is to clean it all up, fix the blower motor that does not work and gain access to the frame to clean it up.
Going to start here while I wait to get back to the engine..
First off I do have an AIM disk but man it's all greek to me. I want to start on the passenger side. I would like to keep the AC system (even though the compressor is long gone) I want to pull evaporator and blower assy. it looks like a daunting taks. The reason is to clean it all up, fix the blower motor that does not work and gain access to the frame to clean it up.
Going to start here while I wait to get back to the engine..
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,688
Likes: 41
From: Palm Harbor, Florida
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,688
Likes: 41
From: Palm Harbor, Florida
unless your heater core leaks. I ripped all mine out for weight reduction. It was a lot of work and I wasn't worried about damaging anything. Don't you have some beers or leftover food from Thanksgiving to occupy your time? lol
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 2
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
I do not know if the heater core leaks. The PO had the AC compressor removed and put a valve in the line to shut it off and since the blower motor doesn't work, I never turned it back on. So should I just fix the blower motor problem and when I get everything back together (some day) check it then?
HAHAHA! Man I have been wating for 2 months to get to work on this car and TG weekend was my start date. Maybe I should just chill the rest of the day.
HAHAHA! Man I have been wating for 2 months to get to work on this car and TG weekend was my start date. Maybe I should just chill the rest of the day.
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,688
Likes: 41
From: Palm Harbor, Florida
I do not know if the heater core leaks. The PO had the AC compressor removed and put a valve in the line to shut it off and since the blower motor doesn't work, I never turned it back on. So should I just fix the blower motor problem and when I get everything back together (some day) check it then?
HAHAHA! Man I have been wating for 2 months to get to work on this car and TG weekend was my start date. Maybe I should just chill the rest of the day.
HAHAHA! Man I have been wating for 2 months to get to work on this car and TG weekend was my start date. Maybe I should just chill the rest of the day.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 2
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 2
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
While I am on the compartment, would you guys change out the fuel and brake lines? If so, how should I go about it, just take them out and replace after I get it all cleaned up?
What I mean here is, I am worried about getting air in the systems.
What I mean here is, I am worried about getting air in the systems.
Last edited by FatCat; Nov 25, 2012 at 01:39 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 13,018
Likes: 2,262
From: Corsicana, Tx
2020 C2 of the Year - Modified Winner
2020 Corvette of the Year (performance mods)
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*IF* you have to get crank turned..and *IF* you buy new pistons...and *IF* you have to pay to press those pistons on and off the rods and *IF* you decide to rebuild the old rods...and *IF* you decide to rebalance it all....I hate to say it but you're getting real close to just getting a basic 383 kit with a cast crank that is already balanced.
That said...from what I could see of the bearings..nothing looked too bad. Get the cylinders ck'd..maybe you can just run a hone through them (with TQ plates if possible-costs more but worth it), get some decent rings and bearings and put it back together.
You can get just one piston and weight will be close enough to not cause issues with balance..they weren't close at all from the factory anyway. But pay close attention to the piston heights. Many less expensive aftermarket pistons are made shorter to allow for block decking and they end up .040" or more below the deck which kills compression.
I'll admit to dropping one back when I was about 19 years old while pressing it on the rod. It was a Sunday and the only other piston I could find was a TRW forged flat top. I stuck it in there with the other 7 cast ones and it ran great for years. Balance was close enough. I also had a set of early GM *Turbo* race heads on it and a solid flat tappet...spun it way higher than I should have for sure!
I won't even mention that it also had a rear main cap off another engine. When I tore it down someone had used an oil pump bolt that was too short and it had barely held pump on and pulled the first few threads out of the cap. Pulled a cap off another engine...didn't have time/$$ to worry about line bore.
Also replaced many a rod bolt without once ever checking them for whether they had changed the rod bore size.
Wow....the joys of innocence. Back then I didn't know all that could happen. I beat on that stuff like crazy and somehow it survived just fine!
JIM
That said...from what I could see of the bearings..nothing looked too bad. Get the cylinders ck'd..maybe you can just run a hone through them (with TQ plates if possible-costs more but worth it), get some decent rings and bearings and put it back together.
You can get just one piston and weight will be close enough to not cause issues with balance..they weren't close at all from the factory anyway. But pay close attention to the piston heights. Many less expensive aftermarket pistons are made shorter to allow for block decking and they end up .040" or more below the deck which kills compression.
I'll admit to dropping one back when I was about 19 years old while pressing it on the rod. It was a Sunday and the only other piston I could find was a TRW forged flat top. I stuck it in there with the other 7 cast ones and it ran great for years. Balance was close enough. I also had a set of early GM *Turbo* race heads on it and a solid flat tappet...spun it way higher than I should have for sure!
I won't even mention that it also had a rear main cap off another engine. When I tore it down someone had used an oil pump bolt that was too short and it had barely held pump on and pulled the first few threads out of the cap. Pulled a cap off another engine...didn't have time/$$ to worry about line bore.
Also replaced many a rod bolt without once ever checking them for whether they had changed the rod bore size.
Wow....the joys of innocence. Back then I didn't know all that could happen. I beat on that stuff like crazy and somehow it survived just fine!
JIM